Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#31

Post by ible » Fri, May 21, 2021, 10:23 PM UTC

hawski wrote: post #6

I really like Thom Holwerda's from OSnews take on the article. Especially the "glorified toaster makers" part. https://www.osnews.com/story/133436/microsoft-and-apple-wage... > What’s good enough for the car industry, is more than good enough for these glorified toaster makers. Cars are basically murder weapons we kind of screwed ourselves into being reliant on, but Apple and Microsoft make complicated toasters that…

Other issues aside, "A is just a complicated B, so apply the same rules to A as B" is not a formula for good decision making.

It's a common way to make bad mistakes though.

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#32

Post by bogwog » Fri, May 21, 2021, 10:24 PM UTC

fish45 wrote: post #7

I just replaced my phone battery using an iFixit kit a few minutes ago. It's probably extended the life of my phone by a year.

My iPhone XS Max screen cracked a few weeks ago and I've been debating sending it in for repair. Apple charges $300 friggin dollars to "fix" the display (I think they just send you a new phone).

Looking online, displays only cost around $50-$90. So I've considered doing that instead, but if I go down that route, my phone will no longer support the "True Tone" feature. This is because Apple burned the serial number of the display onto the motherboard, so if you try to replace it, they'll know and will disable features even though they work perfectly fine.

So in addition to the cost of the screen, I'll also have to buy a screen reprogrammer, which is a device that can copy the serial number from my old display and write it into the new display, so that the phone doesn't realize I replaced the screen. The prices I've seen online for these are like $60+, so it's still cheaper than sending it to Apple.

I don't understand how this isn't 100% illegal. How the hell can Apple get away with doing something so obviously malicious and detrimental to consumers and the environment? Those are some Scrooge McDuck levels of ridiculousness.

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#33

Post by wvenable » Fri, May 21, 2021, 10:27 PM UTC

least wrote: post #23

My main complaint against right-to-repair laws is mostly to the extent that some people push for. I am not against manufacturers being forced to provide things like schematics or parts to third party repair shops. I don't think that companies like Apple should be able to decide who is allowed to or not allowed to access parts to repair their devices. I also don't think that Apple should place DRM on its parts to chec…

I agree. I think the market has shown that if not artificially hampered by the lack of schematics, parts, and DRM that even the most unrepairable seeming products can still be repaired.

A motherboard with soldered on components like RAM or CPU are still more likely to fail because of a bad capacitor or some liquid damage on the traces.

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#34

Post by nrp » Fri, May 21, 2021, 10:29 PM UTC

least wrote: post #23

My main complaint against right-to-repair laws is mostly to the extent that some people push for. I am not against manufacturers being forced to provide things like schematics or parts to third party repair shops. I don't think that companies like Apple should be able to decide who is allowed to or not allowed to access parts to repair their devices. I also don't think that Apple should place DRM on its parts to chec…

The repairability index that France rolled out this year is great in that regard. Sellers of certain types of devices including smartphones and laptops are required to post a repairability score for the product prominently next to the price tag. This highlights to consumers which products are designed to be usable for longer through repair and upgrade and which aren’t, even if they otherwise look and function similarly.

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#35

Post by endemic » Fri, May 21, 2021, 10:35 PM UTC

least wrote: post #23

My main complaint against right-to-repair laws is mostly to the extent that some people push for. I am not against manufacturers being forced to provide things like schematics or parts to third party repair shops. I don't think that companies like Apple should be able to decide who is allowed to or not allowed to access parts to repair their devices. I also don't think that Apple should place DRM on its parts to chec…

How is this different than saying “if a company wants to make bad environmental decisions, that’s their prerogative”? Sometimes the government needs to get involved to prevent short-sighted behavior.

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#36

Post by LegitShady » Fri, May 21, 2021, 10:40 PM UTC

least wrote: post #23

My main complaint against right-to-repair laws is mostly to the extent that some people push for. I am not against manufacturers being forced to provide things like schematics or parts to third party repair shops. I don't think that companies like Apple should be able to decide who is allowed to or not allowed to access parts to repair their devices. I also don't think that Apple should place DRM on its parts to chec…

> am, however, against the idea of companies being forced to design products around being easily repairable. If a company wants to make a super thin device with basically no easy way to take it apart, that's their prerogative. If a company wants to solder on components to the device like RAM or the storage or the cpu or gpu, that's their prerogative.

Totally agree. But they should be publicly labeled as extreme polluters whose devices aren't repairable and who design devices that way intentionally.

They should be free to do it, and then free to be denounced for it.

>The government doesn't need to be involved in this respect.

The environmental aspect of unrepairable devices should probably be regulated like any other industry who makes the decisions to pollute because they want to.

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#37

Post by tweetle_beetle » Fri, May 21, 2021, 10:42 PM UTC

com2kid wrote: post #29

formerly_proven wrote: post #4

Reduce reuse recycle is fundamentally against the business model of BigCorpos. Of course they will fight tooth and nail against legislation that impinges on their business model [1]. It goes to show how good Apple's PR department is that people view them as an eco-oriented company (hint: they're literally in the "producing consumer e-waste market"). But I mean people these days also think Microsoft are open-source fr…

As someone who used to work in consumer electronics, I don't think HN readers understand exactly how harsh tech reviewers come down on devices that aren't as thin as possible. Add an extra millimeter and all of a sudden "tech companies yet again don't understand female audiences as they make yet another monstrously huge device that only men can use." or "this new version is unbelievably thick, and is another failure…

> I don't think HN readers understand exactly how harsh tech reviewers come down on devices that aren't as thin as possible.

I don't think it's reviewers being harsh in their judgements independently so much as most press of that kind has a symbiotic relationship with manufacturers. They need new products with new USPs, however trivial, to feature to justify their existence. More product updates mean more marketing, a faster purchase cycle, more decisions for consumers to make and therefore more interest in reviews.

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#38

Post by pcurve » Fri, May 21, 2021, 10:43 PM UTC

least wrote: post #23

My main complaint against right-to-repair laws is mostly to the extent that some people push for. I am not against manufacturers being forced to provide things like schematics or parts to third party repair shops. I don't think that companies like Apple should be able to decide who is allowed to or not allowed to access parts to repair their devices. I also don't think that Apple should place DRM on its parts to chec…

In spirit, I agree with you. I should be able to choose. My concern is, would average folks know about the trade-offs at the time of purchase?

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#39

Post by verall » Fri, May 21, 2021, 10:44 PM UTC

endemic wrote: post #35

least wrote: post #23

My main complaint against right-to-repair laws is mostly to the extent that some people push for. I am not against manufacturers being forced to provide things like schematics or parts to third party repair shops. I don't think that companies like Apple should be able to decide who is allowed to or not allowed to access parts to repair their devices. I also don't think that Apple should place DRM on its parts to chec…

How is this different than saying “if a company wants to make bad environmental decisions, that’s their prerogative”? Sometimes the government needs to get involved to prevent short-sighted behavior.

Because of the layer of indirection, and potential for missed out innovation. Yes, nonrepairable devices are worse for the environment, but we had early poorly-repairable ultrabooks that helped create a market space for later more-repairable ultrabooks.

I think most people just want to ban the worst anti-repair actions, like trying to disable the device in the event of repair attempts or preventing the use of otherwise compatible 3rd-party hardware with key signatures or proprietary authentication mechanisms.

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#40

Post by N00bN00b » Fri, May 21, 2021, 10:45 PM UTC

com2kid wrote: post #29

formerly_proven wrote: post #4

Reduce reuse recycle is fundamentally against the business model of BigCorpos. Of course they will fight tooth and nail against legislation that impinges on their business model [1]. It goes to show how good Apple's PR department is that people view them as an eco-oriented company (hint: they're literally in the "producing consumer e-waste market"). But I mean people these days also think Microsoft are open-source fr…

As someone who used to work in consumer electronics, I don't think HN readers understand exactly how harsh tech reviewers come down on devices that aren't as thin as possible. Add an extra millimeter and all of a sudden "tech companies yet again don't understand female audiences as they make yet another monstrously huge device that only men can use." or "this new version is unbelievably thick, and is another failure…

>and all of a sudden "tech companies yet again don't understand female audiences as they make yet another monstrously huge device that only men can use."

In relation to the thinness, it's the other way around, I guess? Last time I checked most women's clothes don't even have pockets (someone should start a movement for that, the right to have pockets in your pants). My wife's got a massively oversized phone with a big battery pack on the back, while I don't even tolerate a case because it's bulky in my pocket.