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Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

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Re: Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

#151

Post by orra »

belorn wrote: post #104
orra wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A plethora of women have come forward, with their stories of sexual harassment and manipulation by RMS. (See links in other posts; e.g. the first link in the open letter's appendix.) This isn't just about him describing a "sex trafficking victim" as "entirely willing", and hence not a victim of "sexual assault". This is wrong on so many levels.

Do you mean to say that a "plethora of women" was exactly one alleged claim by one woman that RMS had said he would kill himself unless she went out with him on a date? If it is true then that was bad, and I am sure that gave him a reputation that on a campus likely burned like a wild fire (it sure would do that on my university if anyone said something like that), but what is an appropriate reaction be now several d…

> The second thing the appendix listed was a mattress in his office whose primary user were most likely RMS himself since he kind of had a reputation of living in the university.

Living in an office doesn't excuse having topless people on a mattress in your office.

Re: Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

#152

Post by orra »

vlsmaker wrote: post #116
orra wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're downplaying it entirely. He has a track record of handing out sexualized 'pleasure cards' at professional conferences. Women at MIT were warned away from him, told to keep plants to ward him off. And one of the most troubling things he has done is psychological manipulation. Many jurisdictions rightly recognise as domestic abuse. In particular, he told one woman he would kill himself if she didn't date him. De…

For heavens sake, "business or pleasure?" was the question you were asked at the border before getting a stamp in your passport once upon a time. So a business card turned into a pleasure card , which has nothing to do with sex at all, except for people who want to see things that aren't there. It's one of RMS's quaint re-namings, and people turn it into something sinister. > Women at MIT were warned away from him, t…

You downplay the sexual harassment of handing out these 'pleasure cards'.

But ultimately, real women are upset by it. The unprofessional behavior discourages women from being in tech.

Just because you wouldn't mind receiving such a card, doesn't mean it's not harassment. I mean, do you understand (a) the nature of consent, and (b) professional workplace environments?

Re: Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

#153

Post by smitty1e »

salawat wrote: post #114
krapp wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I believe there is a significant chilling effect in regards to speaking out in the defense of Richard Stallman Sorry? What chilling effect? People are coming out of the woodwork to defend him. Most of the comments on most threads on Hacker News defend him. I can't think of anyone more vigorously and vociferously defended by the tech community except maybe Aaron Swartz. If there's any chilling effect at all, it's in…

Show me a good faith disagreement with Stallman, and I'll show you something so minor as to not justify ousting a man from his job, let alone an entire Board. In fact, in most cases I'll show you one side that doesn't try to actively foist their viewpoint on others, but instead invites the other side to come to their own conclusion. I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader as to which is which.

I support RMS and have been an FSF member for north of a decade.

A substantial disagreement I have with him over the GPL is whether we can call propeietary licenses "immoral".

Taking the libertarian view, I would offer that two people sharing a proprietary licensing agreement is as much my business as them consensually sharing bodily fluids.

The FSF tends toward intolerance as it gazes out from its "monastic" abode.

These sudden "woke" attacks on RMS are not part of a broader anti-freedom assault, are they? Sure would be a shame if there was a pattern of silencing in play.

RMS may be an abrasive, challenging personality, but all of those cheering for his ouster had better hope not to wind up in a Martin Niemöller[1] situation.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...

Re: Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

#154

Post by 0_gravitas »

cies wrote: post #106
gaspmore wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“ I'm not fully aware of what he did, and to what extend he hold on to being a "misogynist, ableist, and transphobic, among other serious accusations of impropriety". Hence I look fwd to a defense.” You don’t know what he did. But you look forward to seeing his defence...? One of the large problems of cancel culture is people, like you, who jump on the bandwagon without really knowing the context or what the person a…

C'mon the petition does not link where he expressed his views. How can I go and read all the internet looking for the offensive material? Nah. I believe the people signing the petition know to some extend that this is serious. The petition respects him by not linking all expressions directly. Now it's up to him to defend himself if he likes. If he came around (like he came around before) that is a good defense in the…

This leaves me very dismayed, why is simply "a lot of people think it" enough to convince you something is true/right? I can think of a good many scenarios where that couldn't ever be non-destructive. This is what critical thinking is for!

Re: Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

#155

Post by yellowapple »

orra wrote: post #148
loveistheanswer wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In particular, he told one woman he would kill himself if she didn't date him. >Depressed people should seek treatment. Being depressed doesn't excuse manipulation. I've been on the receiving end of that same situation; and yet, I don't think inciting an internet hate mob to banish that person from their life's work indefinitely is the proper "treatment" I'd recommend to give that person.

Again, mental health doesn't excuse domestic abuse.

This is not domestic abuse.

Re: Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

#156

Post by salawat »

endisneigh wrote: post #51

I don’t have a particular opinion of Stallman since I don’t have all of the facts but I wish Mozilla put more effort in making themselves more sustainable. From a cursory search it doesn’t appear that Stallman has every physically or sexually harassed anyone. Perhaps he has said questionable things but nothing substantial turned up on a search. Hundreds of millions from Google and basically nothing to show for it oth…

Most people point to his essays on GNU.org

The best I could determine is that his treatment of chosen pronouns got him labeled transphobic, the abort joke is him being misogynistic (that was him preserving historical/cultural context) in addition to a rather unfortunate lapse of character when coming onto a student once. Most everything I've found tends to map back to stuff dredged up while he was under fire for the Minsky stuff.

Got a thorough write up of the debunking of lies though!

https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/

Enjoy!

Re: Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

#157

Post by sildur »

throw0101a wrote: post #142
datavirtue wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read through as many specific quotes as I could find and it all looked like your typical tenured male professor running his mouth. Is Stallman kind of creepy? I think so. Is it a good idea to explore the philosophical points of under age sex in an academic setting or in public? No, but thank the gods you are allowed to...sort of. Has he DONE anything wrong? If so, someone should notify the police. That blog post ca…

> I predict that the author of that post will deeply regret their actions one day when they grow up. The original signers of that letter are: * Molly de Blanc (Debian Project, GNOME Foundation) * Nathan Freitas * Matthew Garrett (Former member of the FSF board of directors). See: https://twitter.com/mjg59 * Shauna Gordon-McKeon * Elana Hashman (Debian Technical Committee Member, Open Source Initiative Director, Kuber…

They can all still grow up, I hope. But the probabilities are slim. Still, it would probably be a bad idea to ostracize all of them just because they say weird things.

Re: Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

#158

Post by salawat »

datavirtue wrote: post #11

What did Stallman do specifically? Why is it always so hard to find out what someone actually said or did when they are being cancelled?

Can't help on what set people off, but those who value the truth collated a thorough debunking of the media smear job.

https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/

Re: Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

#159

Post by salawat »

kristopolous wrote: post #124
orra wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you, uh, read the medium link that I and the appendix linked to? https://selamjie.medium.com/remove-richard-stallman-appendix... He threatened suicide if a woman wouldn't date him. That's abusive manipulation. He, unsolicitedly hands out 'pleasure cards' to women at conferences. That's harassment: Conferences are a interest and professional environment; they're not Tinder. Having a bed in his office at MIT is cre…

I have an office in my bedroom. Is that ok?

That depends. Do you wear shirts while on teleconferences, and what art do people get subjected to?

I will also require your taste in literature, boxers or briefs, tube socks with/without the colored stripes or those ankle socks, and toilets or bidets to make a final determination.

Re: Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

#160

Post by yesenadam »

complexworld wrote: post #63

Please read this to get another point of view on the calls to ostracize RMS. It has facts, quotes, and givies analysis from Nadine Strossen, former president of the ACLU. https://www.wetheweb.org/post/cancel-we-the-web

Thanks, interesting article. I agree that a lot of his supposed crimes consist of talking about—and, most of the time, saying very reasonable things about—subjects which 'normal' people understand are taboo to publicly talk/reason/think about.

I thought this was funny, in an article defending Stallman:

"I have had 3 lunches, 1 free software event, and 1 long car ride with Richard Stallman... In that span of time he managed to confront and berate me countless times. He is by far the most disagreeable person I’ve ever met."

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