Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation • Hacker News Board

Re: Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

#101

Post by shock » Wed, Mar 24, 2021, 11:42 PM UTC

orra wrote: post #99

captaincurrie wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sexual Harassment can mean anything to these usurpers. What it probably means is a big, fat, ugly nerd tried his hand at flirting. Didn't go so well. A little bit of awkwardness for both parties ensured. End of story. Long Live RS!

> Sexual Harassment can mean anything to these usurpers. This is a complete strawman. Sexual harassment is well defined. It would be unwanted and, especially, persistent sexual attention.

> Sexual harassment is well defined. It would be unwanted and, especially, persistent sexual attention.

Don't go to latin america or you'd be in for a surprise. Or Japan.

Re: Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

#102

Post by cies » Wed, Mar 24, 2021, 11:46 PM UTC

asabjorn wrote: post #91

cies wrote: post #47

Please make this post link to the freely available open letter/ petition, instead of the pay walled article about it. Also change the title to "Petition to oust RMS from FSF board" https://rms-open-letter.github.io/ It's an impressive list of names, of whom I know a few personally and hold in high regards. At this point I'm VERY curious to how RMS and the folks that requested him to come back to the FSF have to say i…

> I'm not fully aware of what he did, and to what extend he hold on to being a "misogynist, ableist, and transphobic, among other serious accusations of impropriety". Hence I look fwd to a defense. The accusation uses political activist wording that most of us are familiar with at this point, indicating that woke activism of the signatories and the organizations they work for have at least had some influence. Do you…

> complex woke activism

To me this list of people and organizations are not some silly knights of "woke activism", they are people who'd feel misrepresented by RMS due to his beliefs. I'd not be so dismissive to that. We try to make software a more inclusive place. We being: people organizing conferences, the companies that create software and the FLOSS movement as well. Having someone in a position believing what he is accused of is a real problem.

I just want to know if he can come around to his beliefs, or if he sticks to them. He came around with beliefs concerning the "age of sexual consent" and how that should not matter. I find people's ability to come around when presented with evidence a good thing.

Hence, I hope he responds with a defense.

Re: Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

#103

Post by endisneigh » Wed, Mar 24, 2021, 11:49 PM UTC

orra wrote: post #92

endisneigh wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I saw that, but I didn’t see anything that he did specifically. It seems he said some things that one might disagree with which is fair enough but saying it’s sexual harassment seems like a stretch IMO.

Did you, uh, read the medium link that I and the appendix linked to? https://selamjie.medium.com/remove-richard-stallman-appendix... He threatened suicide if a woman wouldn't date him. That's abusive manipulation. He, unsolicitedly hands out 'pleasure cards' to women at conferences. That's harassment: Conferences are a interest and professional environment; they're not Tinder. Having a bed in his office at MIT is cre…

Having a bed in your office is unusual but I disagree it’s harassment.

Re: Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

#104

Post by belorn » Wed, Mar 24, 2021, 11:49 PM UTC

orra wrote: post #67

mark_l_watson wrote: post #30

As a very liberal person, I have to say that I am disgusted by cancel culture. Disgusted. This is so harmful to society, and is a dark path that the left has taken in my country. To put it plainly, my political party has turned into whinny little people. People should lose their jobs over things like sexual or any type of harassment but when I read Stallman's actual comments last year, I thought that it was very clea…

A plethora of women have come forward, with their stories of sexual harassment and manipulation by RMS. (See links in other posts; e.g. the first link in the open letter's appendix.) This isn't just about him describing a "sex trafficking victim" as "entirely willing", and hence not a victim of "sexual assault". This is wrong on so many levels.

Do you mean to say that a "plethora of women" was exactly one alleged claim by one woman that RMS had said he would kill himself unless she went out with him on a date?

If it is true then that was bad, and I am sure that gave him a reputation that on a campus likely burned like a wild fire (it sure would do that on my university if anyone said something like that), but what is an appropriate reaction be now several decades later?

The second thing the appendix listed was a mattress in his office whose primary user were most likely RMS himself since he kind of had a reputation of living in the university.

Re: Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

#105

Post by amanzi » Wed, Mar 24, 2021, 11:51 PM UTC

orra wrote: post #22

datavirtue wrote: post #11

What did Stallman do specifically? Why is it always so hard to find out what someone actually said or did when they are being cancelled?

Stallman seems to have a history of being manipulative and sexually harassing women. https://selamjie.medium.com/remove-richard-stallman-appendix... He also has some troubling views that at best make him an inappropriate spokesperson. https://rms-open-letter.github.io/appendix

Have you read this too?

https://www.wetheweb.org/post/cancel-we-the-web

Re: Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

#106

Post by cies » Wed, Mar 24, 2021, 11:51 PM UTC

gaspmore wrote: post #70

cies wrote: post #47

Please make this post link to the freely available open letter/ petition, instead of the pay walled article about it. Also change the title to "Petition to oust RMS from FSF board" https://rms-open-letter.github.io/ It's an impressive list of names, of whom I know a few personally and hold in high regards. At this point I'm VERY curious to how RMS and the folks that requested him to come back to the FSF have to say i…

“ I'm not fully aware of what he did, and to what extend he hold on to being a "misogynist, ableist, and transphobic, among other serious accusations of impropriety". Hence I look fwd to a defense.” You don’t know what he did. But you look forward to seeing his defence...? One of the large problems of cancel culture is people, like you, who jump on the bandwagon without really knowing the context or what the person a…

C'mon the petition does not link where he expressed his views. How can I go and read all the internet looking for the offensive material?

Nah. I believe the people signing the petition know to some extend that this is serious. The petition respects him by not linking all expressions directly. Now it's up to him to defend himself if he likes. If he came around (like he came around before) that is a good defense in these cases. I know him as a very principled person: he'll not come around just for show :)

Re: Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

#107

Post by yellowapple » Wed, Mar 24, 2021, 11:51 PM UTC

orra wrote: post #97

yellowapple wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He is being ostracized for sexual harassment. Being a bit of a weirdo - which is really the only allegation so far that has had any real merit, to my knowledge - is not sexual harassment. Claiming otherwise does a massive disservice both to neuroatypical people and to actual victims of sexual harassment. > Finally, does he have an autism diagnosis? Does he need one? This is the US we're talking about; considering h…

> Being a bit of a weirdo - which is really the only allegation so far that has had any real merit, to my knowledge - is not sexual harassment. Well, sure: if you ignore all the evidence, then put up a straw man, you'll never be able to criticise his harassment. Again, RMS is being ostracized for sexual harassment, not for being a weirdo.

> if you ignore all the evidence

What evidence? Pretty much all of it, last I checked, has fallen into any of three categories:

1. Debunked (the "protector of hot ladies" thing, claiming Epstein's victims to have been "entirely willing")

2. Based on some gross exaggeration or misrepresentation (the mattress in his office at MIT, EDIT: and the "pleasure cards")

3. Hearsay

Re: Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

#108

Post by krapp » Wed, Mar 24, 2021, 11:52 PM UTC

_y5hn wrote: post #75

krapp wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I believe there is a significant chilling effect in regards to speaking out in the defense of Richard Stallman Sorry? What chilling effect? People are coming out of the woodwork to defend him. Most of the comments on most threads on Hacker News defend him. I can't think of anyone more vigorously and vociferously defended by the tech community except maybe Aaron Swartz. If there's any chilling effect at all, it's in…

Defend him against what? Not sure what he need defending from, really. It's possible being critical both ways, without seeking harm.

I don't know. Apparently he's both the most brilliant, accomplished, charismatic leader, scholar and engineer who has ever lived, as well as a fragile "autistic" rose who cannot be held responsible for his words and actions and must be protected at all costs by a small army of simps swearing blood oaths of vengeance against his enemies every time he becomes a topic of conversation.

Re: Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

#109

Post by fragsworth » Wed, Mar 24, 2021, 11:52 PM UTC

_y5hn wrote: post #75

krapp wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I believe there is a significant chilling effect in regards to speaking out in the defense of Richard Stallman Sorry? What chilling effect? People are coming out of the woodwork to defend him. Most of the comments on most threads on Hacker News defend him. I can't think of anyone more vigorously and vociferously defended by the tech community except maybe Aaron Swartz. If there's any chilling effect at all, it's in…

Defend him against what? Not sure what he need defending from, really. It's possible being critical both ways, without seeking harm.

They're seeking to "oust" him, so if you think he doesn't deserve it, then he needs to be defended.

Re: Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation

#110

Post by loveistheanswer » Wed, Mar 24, 2021, 11:54 PM UTC

orra wrote: post #81

nyolfen wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the sexual harassment was asking women at conferences on dates

You're downplaying it entirely. He has a track record of handing out sexualized 'pleasure cards' at professional conferences. Women at MIT were warned away from him, told to keep plants to ward him off. And one of the most troubling things he has done is psychological manipulation. Many jurisdictions rightly recognise as domestic abuse. In particular, he told one woman he would kill himself if she didn't date him. De…

>In particular, he told one woman he would kill himself if she didn't date him.

>Depressed people should seek treatment. Being depressed doesn't excuse manipulation.

I've been on the receiving end of that same situation; and yet, I don't think inciting an internet hate mob to banish that person from their life's work indefinitely is the proper "treatment" I'd recommend to give that person.