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Jailbreaking Used Teslas

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Re: Jailbreaking Used Teslas

#151

As I understand, The FSD package (and I guess the performance package too) is linked to the car, not your account. It doesn't follow you from car to car. Then, what is the justification of Telsa's " you did not pay for it" given to second hand owners as seen in this article? This is really disingenuous and in total contradiction with Musk's "your car is an appreciating asset".

As I understand it, if you buy a non-salvage used car from another individual then the package follows the car. If you buy a salvage car then the package does not follow it as the car is officially junk (it also loses warranty, etc). If you buy a used car from Tesla they will remove the package before sale. There's one case where Tesla apparently messed up and didn't remove the package from a car they re-sold until a…

That depends on the feature. They generally do not remove EAP/FSD on cars they resell. There have been mistakes though, and it takes some pressure to get them to fix those mistakes. There have also been cases of people getting EAP/FSD when they didn't pay for it.

Other features, like unlimited supercharging on newer cars (older unlimited supercharging followed the car) or free data were only for the original buyer, and they will remove those when they resell a car.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/4496271/

Re: Jailbreaking Used Teslas

#152
post #60

How long until Tesla (or any manufacturer) remotely disables the ignition on all used cars until the new owner pays them to turn it back on. Its only fair. After all, the new owner just bought a hunk of metal from the previous owner. They still need to purchase a license for features like starting the car.

Tesla aren't the only car company to dabble with a business model based on what the FSF calls antifeatures. [0] Mercedes and BMW have done similar things. [1][2]

[0] https://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/antifeatures

[1] https://www.thecarconnection.com/news/1121248_mercedes-benz-...

[2] https://edition.cnn.com/2020/07/03/business/bmw-options-soft... , discussed https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23763560

Re: Jailbreaking Used Teslas

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read in the past that Tesla does this also to normal used cars that weren't totaled and salvaged. Either way, you paid for it, and even it it's technically "totaled" it's still fucking yours. When Tesla disables functionality remotely, they don't say it's because the warranty ran out or because it's unsafe now, they say they are happy to re-enable it for fresh money. That's why I wouldn't buy a Tesla (or any car of…

I am reasonably confident a large percentage of Tesla's antics are blatantly illegal, but Tesla owners are still too few for someone to have actually gotten fed up with them enough to start suing them. Refusing to activate a car you have the legal title to in any scenario is almost certainly illegal, whether you "salvaged" it or not, for instance. Some of the ways they restrict your car they already sold you, the way…

Yep, sounds like a class action lawsuit that sounds easy to win. It might be tangled in with right to repair lawsuits as well. Also, I think the first sale doctrine should apply. Usually the VIN itself maps to a complete list of specifications. Supercharger access seems to be a harder one to sort out.

It is amazing that ludicrous performance mode is a software upgrade. That makes for amazing margins.

Re: Jailbreaking Used Teslas

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You pay for software updates/upgrades on your PC, right? No...?

How is that? Every new Adobe Creator package used to have a different price(e.g cs3, cs4) Now you can't even upgrade. You pay monthly subscriptions. You pay for OS upgrades as well(i.e win vista, 7, 10 etc)

> How is that?

By using Free Software?

And one has not needed to pay a separate fee for OS upgrades in quite some time. Linux has obviously always been free. macOS since at least Mavericks - if not earlier - is also free of additional charge.

Re: Jailbreaking Used Teslas

#155
post #60

How long until Tesla (or any manufacturer) remotely disables the ignition on all used cars until the new owner pays them to turn it back on. Its only fair. After all, the new owner just bought a hunk of metal from the previous owner. They still need to purchase a license for features like starting the car.

They have been doing that for rebuilds, for supercharging. They then had some programme where you could have it inspected, but they changed their mind and disabled it once again for all rebuilds.

Rich Rebuilds on YouTube has documented his entire ordeal with them.

I don't think I believe Tesla's mission statement about the environment if they are so willing to generate all that e-waste.

Re: Jailbreaking Used Teslas

#156

The worst part isn't even listed in the article - Tesla is remotely disabling fast charging on all salvage cars across all networks, regardless of what the actual damage is. If it was just limited to the supercharger network I would somewhat understand, it's their network and I don't think it's a huge deal to disallow salvage cars on it. But they are removing the ability to charge even at third party chargers, basica…

Surely the people salvaging these cars would be happy to enter into a contract with Tesla to accept all liability (including superchargers/stations) for damages caused by the car they fixed up, then, right?

Edit to add from a below comment I made: I mean more in the scenario of a cell going bad, causing a fire, then maybe blowing up the car and causing collateral damage. As I understand it, this would be covered by the car's insurance, right? If so, Tesla shouldn't be locking the chargers (Maybe Tesla would need to verify insurance before allowing supercharging then). But if it doesn't, or if the car is uninsured, then I can accept Tesla not wanting to be held liable for the damage to their station or other owners' cars for batteries that might have undetectable damage.

Re: Jailbreaking Used Teslas

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember when Tesla issued that paid software update to make your car accelerate 0-100 a 0.1 seconds faster. If the hardware is there unchanged, why should the software update be a paid upgrade? It means the software was not good to begin with. Seems to me Tesla is trying to model a software development business, but they forget they're in the hardware business

Owners of photoshop don't get free updates even though they own their computer. Software costs money to develop so saying all updates should be free simply because they already own the hardware doesn't makes any sense.

You should pay an extra 5$ to use notepad with your windows and no you cannot install another software that opens txt files, if you do, we remove your windows activation.

Re: Jailbreaking Used Teslas

#158
post #60

How long until Tesla (or any manufacturer) remotely disables the ignition on all used cars until the new owner pays them to turn it back on. Its only fair. After all, the new owner just bought a hunk of metal from the previous owner. They still need to purchase a license for features like starting the car.

It's not impossible, but an outright resale fee probably isn't in the cards.

These things take time to develop culturally, if they even do. If they just do it, it will antagonize consumers. ATM, I doubt it's worth it for Tesla.

Meanwhile, they are already selling software, and it seems pretty lucrative. Whether it's taxing used car sales or voluntary upgrades, it's all just software revenue. Unrepentant antifeatures are more of a "late stage" game. There are plenty of less controversial and more lucrative ways for Tesla to make money with software, especially platforms. Tesla now has one, and even if they don't increase production (they will).. it's a growing platform.

...That's not to mention the 800lb gorilla software upgrade.

Agree on the principle though. Everything is becoming a hunk of metal running never software we don't own.

IMO, the really unpopular moves are likely to come from traditional OEMs. They're playing the game of tight margins and high volume. More incentive, at least for now.

Re: Jailbreaking Used Teslas

#159
post #60

How long until Tesla (or any manufacturer) remotely disables the ignition on all used cars until the new owner pays them to turn it back on. Its only fair. After all, the new owner just bought a hunk of metal from the previous owner. They still need to purchase a license for features like starting the car.

I remember when Tesla issued that paid software update to make your car accelerate 0-100 a 0.1 seconds faster. If the hardware is there unchanged, why should the software update be a paid upgrade? It means the software was not good to begin with. Seems to me Tesla is trying to model a software development business, but they forget they're in the hardware business

It might be helpful to distinguish a few different principles here, as it looks like some people are talking at cross-purposes in this part of the discussion.

Personally, I would argue that the most important principle to protect the customer is that they should get what they pay for when they choose to buy a product. That product should not then be retrospectively nerfed through software shenanigans, either for them, or for any future owner they sell the product on to. This is one idea that car manufacturers have been flirting with recently, and IMHO we should stamp on it hard.

Another idea, but to me a clearly distinct one, is that a manufacturer of a combined hardware/software product might develop software-only improvements after the product has been purchased. In this case, I would distinguish explicitly between fixes for problems where the product wasn't performing as expected at the time of purchase (things like safety issues or security vulnerabilities that clearly shouldn't have been there in the first place) and enhancements (things like performance improvements or additional functionality). Again IMHO, the former should be supplied free and unencumbered to all customers, as they are essentially fixing a defective product. For the latter, I don't have a problem in principle with the manufacturer charging for the upgrade, as potentially it incurs additional costs and risks, and it brings a genuine benefit to the customer that they didn't have at purchase time.

A third idea is a manufacturer deliberately shipping a product that isn't using the full hardware capabilities because of artificial software limitations. They might also then offer upgrades for sale later, which is really just a special case of the enhancements-after-sale idea above. Once again IMHO, charging for these enhancements is still OK even if they manufacturer knew in advance that they might ship that software later on, as long as they were honest about what the customer was actually buying at the time of purchase and they didn't claim or imply that those enhancements would become available for free or on any other specific terms that they don't then honour.

There are at least two good reasons for taking this view. One is the general principle that if someone has bought a product of a certain specification for a certain price then that transaction is then concluded. Just as I don't think the manufacturer should be allowed to move the goalposts after the sale in a way that harms the owner, I also don't think the owner is entitled to free extras from the manufacturer that weren't part of the sale. The other is the practical reality that hardware+software products are enormously complicated, software is never perfect, and the idea that a manufacturer should be liable for not shipping optimal software from day one or prohibited from continuing to do work that might develop useful improvements that benefit customers in return for further revenue is kind of silly if you think it through.

One very important issue I'm glossing over here is whether the terms of the original sale were fair to the customer. This is a standard problem in any sort of retail environment, and we usually rely on some combination of competitive markets and government regulation to protect the little guy. But these are also separate issues to the ones above that would have to be considered on a case by case basis.

Re: Jailbreaking Used Teslas

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember when Tesla issued that paid software update to make your car accelerate 0-100 a 0.1 seconds faster. If the hardware is there unchanged, why should the software update be a paid upgrade? It means the software was not good to begin with. Seems to me Tesla is trying to model a software development business, but they forget they're in the hardware business

Owners of photoshop don't get free updates even though they own their computer. Software costs money to develop so saying all updates should be free simply because they already own the hardware doesn't makes any sense.

You are confusing updates with upgrades. Updates were free, but upgrades to the next main version had to be paid.
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