I think that "mixed" farming like this article describes has a huge potential for automation by the software field. Monocrops[0] (homogeneous fields of crops like corn or soybeans) are easy to build automated robots for. We've been doing that for generations now, starting with combine harvesters[1]. But there are many problems with growing monocrops[2]. Pests are a problem -- they breed and spread disease. And on the…
From [4]: Three kinds of evidence point toward declines of some nutrients in fruits and vegetables available in the United States and the United Kingdom: ... 3) recent side-by-side plantings of low- and high-yield cultivars of broccoli and grains found consistently negative correlations between yield and concentrations of minerals and protein, a newly recognized genetic dilution effect. I think more automation is onl…
Investors say agroforestry is climate friendly and also profitable
151–160 of 170 posts
Re: Investors say agroforestry is climate friendly and also profitable
#152Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah. Big Ag is not incentivized to be sustainable, let alone be regenerative. Big Ag is certainly not resilient. Its very reward system (like modern commerce in general) is based on the extraction of resources (whether that be in the earth, or people resources), and then controlling access to them. Overharvesting always happen, because we're culturally conditioned to define wealth and status in terms of how much one…
>Yeah. Big Ag is not incentivized to be sustainable, let alone be regenerative. Can you expand on this point some? I'm trying to understand but I don't really see the problem. Whether the nutrition comes from the soil or the fertilizer doesn't really seem that important. I get what other posters have said about vegetables in the past being more nutritious but it's not clear to me that this matters terribly much compa…
However, soil fertility is not just about the chemical makeup of the soil. There are soil bacteria and mycellium that symbiotically live at the roots to help plants make use of those nutrients. Root systems of plants grow together, and plants biochemically communicate with each other. Roots also need oxygen, so aerated soil matters. Plants that die back in the soil leave their roots in place, slowly decomposing and releasing other nutrients for use of other plants, and other organisms such as earthworms. Those same roots — both larger tap roots, and fine branches of the root system, changes the absorptive qualities of the soil so that it can hold water and release them.
In other words, healthy, fertile soil is very much alive, and helps store and regulate water and nutrients for the plants that live and die on the soil.
Healthy, fertile soil can support life directly in a way in a much tighter feedback loop. Using amendments requires more intervening steps. If the top soil gets eroded away, that top soil has to get imported, creating a longer supply chain. The longer the supply chain, the more fragile it becomes. It becomes less adaptive, more sensitive to volatility.
Another is that the optimization toward short term yield is often at the cost of long-term fertility. We build these fragile systems that are optimized for scale and yield as if that fertility will not run out. If the soil is depleted somewhere, importing soil amendments, or even top soil, has to come from somewhere. Even if the supply chain is not cut, at some point, the resources to maintain that longer supply chain will run out.
This setup also conditions people into a situation where they now have to rely on currency to supply basic needs. That, in and of itself, drives the growing wealth inequality of today.
To address that wealth inequality, we are now seriously considering universal basic income. But if you looked at universal basic income as just one type of energy and nutrient flow, it is ridiculous that an easier method for obtaining those basic needs can be had by allowing each household, or neighborhood to supply some of those needs locally.
There is a small town in Canada where the community got together to convert one of their public spaces into a food forest. Volunteers came in to dig and plant. Local businesses stepped up to provide transportation to bring in the compost, the perennials, shrubs, and trees. The food forest was designed in a way so that the natural rainfalls can sustain the growth. The perennials all create a long-term supply of food. Once the initial capital was invested, there is little ongoing maintenance.
People in the community can then go into food forest and get free food. There are probably some education on identifying what is edible (and there are plenty of it). Food grows on trees and on the land. A food forest doesn’t require currency to feed people, and as such, is resilient to a deflationary contraction of the economy.
And that is just one regenerative system. Individuals who have access to multiple, local, regenerative food systems have a greater food security than those that do not.
And that is just food, one out of a handful of the foundational survival needs. There is also shelter, warmth, clothing, water.
Permaculture design looks at the whole system, such that all of the basic needs can be partially, if not wholly, met with regenerative systems. A individual within a community that has access to multiple regenerative processes that can meet all of the basic needs do not require universal basic income. When something like the pandemic happens, they are in a far better place than individuals who do not have access to any regenerative processes.
Such an individual can build the higher needs (I am referring to Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs) on a foundation of resilient and regenerative processes. With such a solid foundation of abundance, there is less reason to hold others in contempt. Or to cast out and alienate another group out of fear and anxiety over survival needs.
That fertility of the land extends into creativity of the people. The permaculturists I encounter tend to generate many new ideas. There is a liveliness and exuberance that is a contrast to the general malaise and loneliness of many urban and rural residents.
It isn’t as if building this is not for free either. This does require a significant shift in the mindset, in how one views and experiences the world. There is hard work required. Your hands get dirty. But I would say, it is also more fulfilling — not just nourishing the body, but also more intangible needs for people to have meaningful and purposeful lives.
Re: Investors say agroforestry is climate friendly and also profitable
#153The article doesn't mention permaculture. Permaculture has been used commercial settings (and its design principles includes agroforestry). Permies have been talking about resilient and regenerative systems for a long while now, going beyond sustainability. Permaculture design looks at the whole system. So not just trees, but also things to plant with the trees. With planting along contours and adding swales to catch…
Not just food. Let's "localize" all of our needs. Every single one of them. Note that is "needs", not wants. There will always be room for trade in things that you cannot produce locally such as coffee, but for almost every other thing, there are local solutions. Open Source Ecology [1] attempts to go the high-tech route and they may get somewhere, but they are only one of many approaches to localizing. With the inte…
OSE has a permaculture page on their wiki, though hardly anyone added anything in there. This kind of stuff is not well-organized.
I thought, for example, building a graphdb-based lookup system for planning companion planting.
Another is some kind of decentralized barter system. Without being beholden to generating huge returns, I think this would be really useful. But like pioneer plants and “weeds”, I see a lot of permies using whatever adhoc means they have to trade information and barter for services. (But it is why I became very interested in Free Software, mesh networking, and raspberry pis. The supply chain that supports the internet is still fragile, and is currently coopted by Big Tech).
Re: Investors say agroforestry is climate friendly and also profitable
#154The book that got me into this was Mark Shepard's 'Restoration Agriculture". [1] His "New Forest Farm" in WI has been making use of these ideas for some time now. [2] Shepard got his inspiration from Permaculture [3] and the books, "Tree Crops", [4] and "The One Straw Revolution". [5] 1: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/16441733-restoration-agr... 2: https://newforestfarm.us 3: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/…
One Straw Revolution changed my life. It inspired me to learn permaculture first hand. It's such an enjoyable book to read
Re: Investors say agroforestry is climate friendly and also profitable
#155Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Growing up on a farm" can have vastly different meanings across places - from living next to an industrial-scale operation to an idyllic, quiet small farm surrounded by nature.
> an idyllic, quiet small farm surrounded by nature. That sounds more like a country house — or a tax dodge— than it does a working farm.
Re: Investors say agroforestry is climate friendly and also profitable
#156Earlier quoted context omitted.
I love "decentralization" as much as the next person on HN, but one the problem is not pricing in the externalities, I am not sure centralization is the problem. A few bleeding hearts can run a parallel economy for good X with an alternate value function, but this doesn't really scale in and of itself. Now, if someone combines alt grid / alt farms with lobbying for punitive tax in the smallest surrounding jurisdictio…
And I am somewhat suspicious of the complaints about sustainability. If modern agriculture is bad for soil in the long run, the owners of the soil surely will have an opinion about that. That's not even an externality. The only thing holding back soil sustainability would be high interest rates. But that hasn't been a thing in more than a decade.
While they can pump in nitrogen and phosphorus, they can get away with trashing the soil as much as they want. But if phosphorus becomes scarce they'll be suddenly left with ruined soil and no cost-effective work-around.
Re: Investors say agroforestry is climate friendly and also profitable
#157The article doesn't mention permaculture. Permaculture has been used commercial settings (and its design principles includes agroforestry). Permies have been talking about resilient and regenerative systems for a long while now, going beyond sustainability. Permaculture design looks at the whole system. So not just trees, but also things to plant with the trees. With planting along contours and adding swales to catch…
Not just food. Let's "localize" all of our needs. Every single one of them. Note that is "needs", not wants. There will always be room for trade in things that you cannot produce locally such as coffee, but for almost every other thing, there are local solutions. Open Source Ecology [1] attempts to go the high-tech route and they may get somewhere, but they are only one of many approaches to localizing. With the inte…
Re: Investors say agroforestry is climate friendly and also profitable
#158Ah, so VCs have discovered sharecropping.
Re: Investors say agroforestry is climate friendly and also profitable
#159The feds would have to stop distorting the markets in the West before any of this could happen economically, right? People didn't just forget how to grow orchards and pastures. They got run out of business by the California water projects and the BLM. As long as the BLM keeps leasing out grazing land for $1/acre and as long as Reclamation allows Stewart Resnick to grow 100k acres of nuts on otherwise worthless land,…
Just so people aren't confused, BLM == Bureau of Land Management
Re: Investors say agroforestry is climate friendly and also profitable
#160Earlier quoted context omitted.
> A vanishingly small percentage of beef comes from the lands under discussion. I don't doubt at all the environmental destruction being wrought. However, the land's use is supporting some market for beef though, or else why would the question of $1 leases to stockmen exist? Is it just that it's cheap and marginal (in both cost and quality) land that can be used for marginal production increases, or is it supporting…
It can't just all be a UBI scheme for... Every one of my travels to western states and every conversation I've had with other cattlemen there and elsewhere implies that it is exactly that. Perhaps once upon a time it was something else, and as the situation changed our government didn't keep up. I imagine that numerous bureaucrats at BLM and other agencies have some personal interests in the disastrous way that thing…
"It can't just all be a UBI scheme for alpine beef ranchers, can it?"
As in, I wouldn't be surprised at all if it were, but haven't had the conversations you've had first hand.