Live data from Hacker News

Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

cbc.ca

151–160 of 189 posts

Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#151
post #90
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a cyclist, I believe that the driver should be held to the higher standard, but also that I can never trust them to live up to their responsibility, so I gotta be ready to stop and/or dodge any reckless maneuver they make. We tend to conflate the moral judgement of responsibility/fault with the actual reality of responsibility. If you're driving a deadly vehicle, the moral burden is on you not to kill me, but I st…

You've chosen to place your life in jeopardy by riding a push-bike in traffic. Surely that bears some consequence?

Couldn't say about your local laws, but in the US (where I ride) cycling is a right extended to all, but driving a car is a privilege which requires certification. My sense is that the spirit of those laws aligns with some of the discussion here, cars kill (other) people, where cyclists are likely to only get themselves killed.

Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#152
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a cyclist, I believe that the driver should be held to the higher standard, but also that I can never trust them to live up to their responsibility, so I gotta be ready to stop and/or dodge any reckless maneuver they make. We tend to conflate the moral judgement of responsibility/fault with the actual reality of responsibility. If you're driving a deadly vehicle, the moral burden is on you not to kill me, but I st…

> held to the higher standard This I disagree with. For better or worse, we are typically the ones who are riding on roads designed and built for them. We need to be held to the same standards, if not higher standards as motorcyclists and bicyclists, as we're intentionally playing in their turf, without their safety equipment. If a bicyclist is careless, they are both stupid and negligent. If a car driver is careless…

>> held to the higher standard

> This I disagree with.

Well the law and society disagree with you. The type of reasoning is very ubiquitous too. The more dangerous thing you are operating the more responsibility you have. We generally have morals that align to it being worse to take someone else's life than your own, though we don't encourage either. A car can do much more damage to others than a motorcycle can. A motorcycle can do more damage than a bicyclist can. A bicyclist can do more damage than a pedestrian. It isn't surprising that the right of way follows the inverse of this; those that are most vulnerable have a higher right of way.

I think you are also conflating two different things. Legally and socially we consider the car to be held to a higher standard because it is more dangerous. Practically when I'm on a bike I have to be more vigilant because I'm more vulnerable and I value my life. But when we say that someone should be held to a higher standard we can take an inverse to check our understanding. Disagreeing that cars should be held to a higher standard is equivalent to saying "cars should be held to less (or equal) standards as bicyclists", which I think sounds kinda absurd.

> The difference is that being careless on a bike of any type is more dangerous to you than being careless in a car

And I think this demonstrates that confusion. The bike is not more dangerous, the car is. There is more danger involved when riding a bike, but the car is definitely more dangerous. There is no way you can argue that a bike can do more damage than a car can. The car is more dangerous, therefore it has more responsibility. But that doesn't mean you should trust them to be responsible. Different things.

Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I mostly agree you, I think “never valid” is a bit extreme. My uncle was hit by a drunk driver that turned left into his lane at the last minute on a straight road. These type of incidents, which are rare and can’t be avoided, is why I took my bike off the road and only take it to the track. Maybe the first rule of riding is “it’s not the safest form of transportation and you must accept the risk”?

I've always liked "Ride like everyone else is trying to kill you, because they are." Myself, I'm a cyclist, but a lot of motorcycle rules and bike rules overlap.

As a rider myself, I don't understand that philosophy, and I've never seen another rider follow it, even when they claim to. Certainly, if you believed that, you would never be within a mile of any other vehicle on the road.

"The Matrix Reloaded" featured a 30 minute action sequence showing what it's like when a tiny fraction of other drivers are actually trying to kill you. Spoiler: without Neo swooping in to "do his Superman thing" and save you, you're dead, even if you've got automatic weapons and kung fu training.

Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When i saw that for the first time (in a tram in Nagasaki, as I recall) I first thought the driver is a few fries short of a happy meal. It looks so weird to Western eyes. Then later reading up about it it actually makes a lot of sense. Some more material to read up on it: https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/pointing-and-calling-j...

Lots of subway systems make the drivers do this. NYC does for sure, and I think Montreal as well. I'm sure there are loads of other ones.

In NYC someone played a good-natured prank on them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9jIsxQNz0M

Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Speeding is not inherently unsafe. It very much is unsafe. In some studies they find that speeding does not cause more accidents. But speeding is still unsafe because speeding makes the accidents that do happen much more likely to be fatal.

Source?

The laws of physics??

Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's funny because as kids the first thing they teach us is to look around before crossing the streets and make sure that vehicles on the streets saw us and stopped. Adults are so pendatic about it that we develop muscle memory for it. The reason is simple: don't assume other people won't make mistakes just because they were supposed to be careful and protect the weakest. The safer option is to actually be proactive…

So do you wear body armor and a helmet when out walking? If not, why not?

I might if I walked in the street. I don't encounter a lot of cars driving on the sidewalk, and in theory I shouldn't encounter cyclists there either.

Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#157
post #18

As a motorcyclist and defensive driver I find these kind of articles worrying, because they imply that riders are rolling around trusting other people not to hit them. The first rule of motorcycling, that you accept when you swing your leg over a bike, is that no matter whose fault any collision might be, it is your responsibility and yours alone to anticipate and avoid all such incidents. "But he pulled out in front…

Fellow motorcyclist here. visibility. in my case I will ride with the high beams on during the day, if I am directly behind another car in stop and go I will turn them off. I also run small projector/fog lamps down low to form a light triangle which I believe further increases my being noticed. Yet as you imply, I don't trust that I am ever seen. it isn't just short term memory but people just aren't paying attention…

I will ride with the high beams on during the day

Please quit doing that. It makes it extremely difficult to judge your distance. You think you're doing it to avoid having me pull out, and ironically I'm more likely to pull out because I haven't the faintest idea how far away that blazing ball of light is.

Seriously, do people that do things like this never look to see what it looks like from the other side? Or is it the power of the ol' cargo cult/urban legend/"common sense" (see also: "loud pipes save lives")?

I also run small projector/fog lamps down low to form a light triangle

That's what's going to save you, not being obnoxious with your high beam. It's a not-common pattern, and it establishes that you're not a car with a headlight out.

Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#158
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why don't drivers? They do in fact. This is the list of the mandatory safety measures in Europe for motor vehicles, it's 24 pages long https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32... > Driving is the biggest killer of young people It is not driving, it's road traffic injuries, which includes biking. Anyways it's worse in US than Europe and it's much worse for male than for female. One could conclude…

> > Supposedly the health benefits of cycling outweigh the dangers of the road > They don't. Single sided bicycle accidents are pretty common.

You made a joke, good for you, but the reality is not a joke at all.

At this link you will find official stats from EU for 2018.

https://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safety/sites/roadsafety/...

Bikes are dangerous (for bikers most of all) and, unexpectedly, countries with more bikes and with better biking infrastructures have higher mortality rates.

For example Italy is safer than Holland or Germany and the majority of fatalities happen in the age range 50-65+, because bikes are inherently dangerous for old people (a lot more than cars).

And in practically every country men are dominating the rankings. EU average is 80% men 20% women.

If you think that in Italy in 2018 there have been 172.344 accidents, causing 3.325 deaths it means that only 1,9% of the accidents cause a death. That's quite safe if you ask me, especially if you consider the total number of kilometers traveled. The statistics must be improved, but it's good nonetheless.

In the same period 275 bike fatalities were registered, it means that ~1 death every 10 is a bike related accident. If you think that Italy has the highest ratio of car owned in the entire west (more than US) at 89% and it is safer than other bike friendly countries like Germany or the Netherlands, it is quite easy to conclude that cars are safer than bikes.

Another interesting data point is "Accident Causation"

~20% of the accidents are caused by ‘incorrect direction’ by the biker, while `other drivers/bikers in bicycle accidents` have taken ‘incorrect direction’ only 2% of the time.

‘incorrect direction’ refers to (I will quote the study here)

> ‘Incorrect direction’ refers to a manoeuvre being carried out in the wrong direction (for example, turning left instead of right) or leaving the road (not following the intended direction of the road). ‘Premature action’ describes a critical event with an action started too early, before a signal was given or required conditions established.

It looks like imprudence by the bikers causes at least 20% of the accidents.

Another 20% is caused by `premature actions` that refers to

> ‘Premature action’ describes a critical event with an action started too early, before a signal was given or required conditions established.

Bikers are also more subject to fractures and open wounds

Fracture bikers: 34%

Fracture all modes of transport: 27%

Open wound bikers: 13%

Open wounds all modes of transport: 10%

So the question remains: why most of the time bikers don't wear any kind of protection?

Could it be because it's a majority of males and the testosterone in their bodies is known for promoting risk-taking behavior?

Could it be that countries with bike-only infrastructures promote taking more risks because are publicised as "safer" but they really are not?

Could it simply be that women are just wiser?

Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's funny because as kids the first thing they teach us is to look around before crossing the streets and make sure that vehicles on the streets saw us and stopped. Adults are so pendatic about it that we develop muscle memory for it. The reason is simple: don't assume other people won't make mistakes just because they were supposed to be careful and protect the weakest. The safer option is to actually be proactive…

So do you wear body armor and a helmet when out walking? If not, why not?

More appropriately (since armor won't protect you from a two ton SUV), do you wear bright colors, reflective tape, and night-time illumination when walking?

The answer from any smart pedestrian certainly should be yes, but it's surprisingly hard to buy neon yellow jackets or hats. They're rare for bclists and almost nonexistent for mcyclists, of which I'm both.

Apparently most mcyclists would rather be cool than visible.

Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#160
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s interesting to me: As a fellow motorcyclist, I agree with your philosophy wholeheartedly. But most bicyclists (who are arguably at more risk from a car/truck than a motorcyclist) disagree with this just as wholeheartedly. I seriously wonder why this dichotomy exists, especially as bicycles are gaining electric motors capable of propelling them at higher and higher speeds.

Why do you claim that most bicyclists espouse some extremely specific philosophical viewpoint? Have you surveyed a representative sample of cyclists or something? It's just extremely weird to me to make such a sweeping claim about a large group you don't count yourself in.

Not the OP, but I’m pretty sure they are basing it on the same observations I have. The vast majority of motorcyclists I encounter are riding defensively, while the majority of cyclists I see in city traffic are aggressive and ignore most traffic laws.
Post reply on HN