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Ring has partnered with 400 police forces

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Ring has partnered with 400 police forces

#151
post #106
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe we shouldn't construct a society where your obligations to your employer are at odds with you helping society find justice for a murder victim. This is a great example of how atomized our society has become.

I'm honestly not sure what that means. Many large companies tend to be pretty flexible with respect to things like jury duty. But, to say that even a small business needs to keep paying full salary for someone who is out for weeks or longer (and even if they have to hire a temporary replacement) is probably not realistic. Per diems for things like jury duty should arguably be higher. But there's no world in which, sa…

One thing i can say that i dont think was said here is that you're right that some large companies are very flexible in this way. It's a good thing we have their permission to participate in the justice system! In my experience, however, almost all smaller companies have a culture of sharing tips on how to avoid being selected for jury duty that is actively encouraged by ownership and management. It's worth remembering this when people issue blanket statements about how consumers should prefer small businesses over large ones because of some vague notion that they're more beneficial to "the community."

Re: Ring has partnered with 400 police forces

#152
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm honestly not sure what that means. Many large companies tend to be pretty flexible with respect to things like jury duty. But, to say that even a small business needs to keep paying full salary for someone who is out for weeks or longer (and even if they have to hire a temporary replacement) is probably not realistic. Per diems for things like jury duty should arguably be higher. But there's no world in which, sa…

What they should do is allow the business to deduct that employee's salary from the taxes they owe while that employee is fulfilling a public need.

This is actually an interesting idea. I'd say (only half tongue-in-cheek) that then maybe we can tax companies heavily for all IP lawsuits they engage in so compensate for the massive money cost to citizens that the system of circular patent trolling creates.

Re: Ring has partnered with 400 police forces

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where is the cutoff point, then? At what number of cameras, or cameras per square meter, is it no longer ethical to record what is visible from your property? Exactly one camera? Can you multiplex multiples, so the video feed simulates a person walking around the property? Are the ethics limited by human capabilities, or by human intent? Or it strictly a matter of outcomes?

If you were to stand on your porch with phone in hand, on the line with the police, and narrate aloud that your neighbor is out getting the paper, and what he looks like, and that he has a strange car in his driveway from the night before, etc. it would be immediately obvious how socially inappropriate and unacceptable this degree of surveillance is. The fact that we have not already codified a specific right or soci…

It would not be obvious to me that the narrating neighbor is doing anything unacceptable. Your appeal to obviousness (bandwagon fallacy) leaves out any meaningful ethical argument as to why such behavior should be socially unacceptable.

One neighbor has a right to record, memorialize, or journalize anything they may observe. The other neighbor has a right to privacy, sometimes.

But that does not include those times when they are out and about in public. If you don't want neighbors tattling on your activities, be somewhere where they can't see you without trespassing. There is a case to be made for a right to pseudo-anonymity in public, to not be gratuitously identified by strangers, but this does not apply to your hypothetical.

Please take a moment to think past obviousness, and consider the non-obvious implications of establishing a right to privacy based on invisible-to-the-human-eye private property lines and the potentially obfuscated ownership or unpublished tenancy rights in those properties.

The only question that needs to be answered is whether the owner of the camera has the right to be where the camera is while it is recording. Opening it up beyond that, to what the camera might be able to capture from there, is a whole new can of worms. That introduces the potential for censorship based on the content of the recordings, a possibility far more unacceptable (to me) than having a relentlessly snitchy, nosy, tattling neighbor.

There is definitely an argument to be made against police being able to use all those shared video feeds without getting explicit permission from a judge, but I believe the doorbell-camera owner has an absolute right to record anything it can see, 24-7, and publish all of it, or none of it, to whomever they choose to share it with, or no one at all, to include turning it over to police. It is not meaningfully different from the nosy old fart that watches everyone in the neighborhood from their front window, and then gossips about what everyone is doing to their friends, who are doing exactly the same thing on their own streets. They can tattle to the cops whenever they like. We have always needed to draw the curtains to keep Peeping Tom and Bertha Busybody at bay. Preventing them from looking anywhere off their own property is not an ethical option. We can restrict the police from acting on those tips without independently verifiable evidence, because the cops are nominally public servants.

And that's where the focus needs to lie. Restrict the cops from even looking at any of those shared feeds without some record of reasonable suspicion.

Re: Ring has partnered with 400 police forces

#154
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At equal risk of being glib, I don't think the purchase of consumer electronics should put you on the hook for weeks of depositions for a crime you didn't personally witness. I believe that would the literal manifestation of "that's not what I signed up for". Here's the MP4 file, now go away.

What if you were a random witness? You didn't sign up for that either. You have certain civic obligations which are enforced by law. I assume in these types of cases, you could be held in contempt if you wouldn't respond voluntarily. It's unfortunate for the person involved and the incentives in the system are such that no one is trying to make efficient use of their time. But that's pretty much the way it is. It's n…

The problem here is that the leave is unpaid.

I've been informed recently that the employer in Germany has to compensate for the leave and will be reimbursed later. This sounds too good to be true though.

Re: Ring has partnered with 400 police forces

#155
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not equivalent. In one case you need a human testifying because the memory of the events are stored in their brain that's inaccessible to any other form of retrieval besides giving a deposition. In the other case, the camera caught it on a digital format thats accessible by literally anyone living in the 21st century.

That's not how trials work. Someone has to testify that yes, they installed the camera on X date, yes, the date/time stamp is accurate, yes, it was working the last time they checked, yes, the video in question was recovered, yes, the video was transferred to the prosecutors office, no, the video was not modified to the best of my recollection. Saying "hey, I have this mp4 that proves the murder" doesn't work in cour…

Courts have this rigid rule that whitness must be given in court even if it had been given before, possibly in retrial, too.

Re: Ring has partnered with 400 police forces

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea of cross-examining the person who introduces security camera video doesn't really make much sense. If the camera actually witnessed the crime what could the installation possibly have to do with it? The only time it could be relevant is if the camera simply showed when/where the suspect was. I would like to see the system modified somewhat--in criminal trials everyone has to disclose what they are going to p…

>The idea of cross-examining the person who introduces security camera video doesn't really make much sense. Well interestingly this is a major issue in red light camera cases. Initially as cities were implementing red light cameras, the ticket and court case were all essentially automated. In many jurisdictions this was challenged on multiple grounds, but one of the biggest issues (which most courts tending to agree…

That's basically a technicality. If the video clearly shows the entire offense (to me that would include showing the entire yellow so it can be measured against what it should have been) nothing else should matter.

On the other hand, if the camera doesn't show everything the camera software is in effect testifying--and it comes down to if there are any flaws in the software. The government does not have a good track record on this--breathalyzers inherently are relying on the software and the manufacturers won't permit examination (discovery refused, there goes the DUI case)--so in some places it's been declared unquestionable.

(Never mind that the breathalyzer inherently has a considerable error margin due to biology--the ratio between blood alcohol and breath alcohol varies from person to person. Quick screening test, fine, evidence for conviction--not in my book.)

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