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Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

nytimes.com

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Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#151

Post by JohnFen »

bwb wrote: post #37
danso wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the device is the primary contributor in terms of “creating the data”, then why are users needed? The users and their personal behavior and usage metrics are obviously the valuable part of the data — not the device that logs and measures the data. Also, (though I’m sure there’s “semantic” nuance in this too), the users are the ones who pay to possess and maintain the data-creating device.

It is a symbiotic relationship :) I do not think just because you are involved in creating data that means it is yours. When you give data to the census that isn't your data... when you click an ad and buy something that data isn't your data... I just don't get this notion that data is yours because you are involved in its creation. There is data about you that might be private or personal and should have protections…

> the notion that data you have a role in creating is yours seems extreme.

The notion that it's OK for me to be forced to send such data to others seems extreme to me.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#152

Post by bwb »

JohnFen wrote: post #150
bwb wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. If the shutter fails to open to spec, would you want them to know about it and have data to improve it via a firmware update or next version of the product? Please read my post, and really read it :). I am not saying all data is theirs, I am saying it depends on the type of data and I don't want to see no data being shared.

> If the shutter fails to open to spec, would you want them to know about it and have data to improve it via a firmware update or next version of the product? Not without my explicit consent.

Yep I understand your POV, I am just saying I am not sure you should have that level of control depending on the data :)

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#153

Post by JohnFen »

bwb wrote: post #115
inetknght wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My point is a lot of these seems to be a fear-based response driving extreme privacy reactions. What world do you live in where fear is unreasonable? The world is not the happy place that you very clearly think it is. I have personal friends and family who have very legitimate reasons to demand enforced privacy. People who've been abused by others; who've been abused by people who have made serious threats against…

I agree with most of that. I think we are closer than you think on this. I do recognize the power of data, but I am tired of this communities inability to conceive that this data is and can be used for good.

> I am tired of this communities inability to conceive that this data is and can be used for good.

I don't see any inability to recognize that. What I see is is a recognition that "data can be a powerful force for good" is not a valid argument for why people should be forced to reveal that data.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#154

Post by 14 »

michaelt wrote: post #82
wiggler00m wrote: post #22

"What carmakers are doing with the collected data isn’t clear." Carmakers will reduce the mortality rate from motor vehicle accidents to almost zero (with full autonomy), using the collected data. There were 37,133 MV deaths in the USA in 2017 (more than 0.01% of the population) according to Wiki.

Car makers will get data they can use to simulate and test their self-driving cars. But car makers will also get full GPS traces - showing where you live, where you work, where you shop and every time you speed. And they'll probably get what phone was seen on bluetooth, how many seats were occupied, and what radio station was listened to. All identifiable by vehicle, and very close to identifiable by driver. Will the…

I saw an article here ages ago that stated researchers only needed very little driving data and they could identify the driver. So many hidden patterns in the way we break or accelerate they were able to with a high accuracy identify the drivers. I have no doubt cars can and do identify drivers.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#155

Post by jimktrains2 »

rootusrootus wrote: post #117
jimktrains2 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But given the number of vehicular deaths Or we could spend a small fraction of the war on drugs on more traffic cops and save many more lives than the war on drugs has. Driving is extremely dangerous, and there is a significant number of people out there making it even more so by tailgating, suicide lane switches, and excessive speeding for the road conditions.

With an average of one death per 100,000,000 miles traveled, I don't know if I'd rate driving as extremely dangerous. Otherwise, I kinda agree. Eliminate drunk driving and make it so everyone is wearing a seatbelt, and the fatality rate would drop by half.

It's not just deaths, but injuries and property damage.

Yes, driving has gotten much, much safer over the past few decades, but it's still the most dangerous thing we do on a daily basis.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#156

Post by mixmastamyk »

bwb wrote: post #139
mixmastamyk wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feel free to run to the front of the battle and take the arrows for the rest of us. Chiding others for not sacrificing themselves to boost corporate profits is a shitty thing to do. I also don't believe you've thought through all the failure modes and misaligned incentives that happen over time. Not wanting to live in a "1984" dystopia is not extreme by any means.

I am not chiding in any way, I apologize as my point must have not been well written if that is how it landed. Sorry :( We are not in 1984, and that is fiction. I fully acknowledge I have not fully thought through every branch of the problem, but what I don't want to see is this idea that all data is at the hands of the person who played a role in creating it. Some data needs to go back to the company and society if…

Ok, but it's not your place to decide the rights of others nor their responsibility to make your car safer paid for with their privacy. If you want to be safer put on a seatbelt and helmet and drive more slowly, rather than expressing entitlement to others whereabouts, choices, and associations.

History is largely a story of those without power breaking free from those who do and take advantage. Also, an inability to learn from fiction is a disadvantage.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#157

Post by JohnFen »

bwb wrote: post #152
JohnFen wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the shutter fails to open to spec, would you want them to know about it and have data to improve it via a firmware update or next version of the product? Not without my explicit consent.

Yep I understand your POV, I am just saying I am not sure you should have that level of control depending on the data :)

But why do you think I should be forced to reveal anything?

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#158

Post by stcredzero »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #122
agentofuser wrote: post #112

If I'm a pedestrian getting my body filmed, 3D-scanned, with potential facial recognition and internal-organs-penetrating sensors added on top, _I'm_ the one who should own that data (and the right to not consent to its collection in the first place). Why are people weirded out by some Google Glass-wearing rando filming them on the sidewalk but ok for everyone behind a wheel to be suddenly promoted to a CCTV omnisens…

>Why are people weirded out by some Google Glass-wearing rando filming them on the sidewalk but ok for everyone behind a wheel to be suddenly promoted to a CCTV omnisensing recorder? Pedestrians are promoting dense and walk-able cities, environmentally sustainable transportation, healthy lifestyles and are generally virtuous. Drivers are wasting space, killing the planet, promoting a sedentary lifestyle and are gener…

Principles. The principal is your "pal."

most people aren't disciplined enough to stick to their principals when a group they don't like is the one getting screwed

For most people, it's hard to keep out of group-think mode 100% of the time. It's especially hard to do when emotions are involved. As a consequence, most are only too happy to screw the members of the groups they don't like.

This is why one should stay away from politics where one is labeling another group as inferior or bad, based on how they were born, or based on what they believe. It's better to convince than to condemn.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#159

Post by deogeo »

bhauer wrote: post #10

What? > We know our smartphones, Nests and Alexas collect data, and we’ve come to accept an implicit contract: We trade personal information for convenience. With cars, we have no such expectation ... What carmakers are doing with the collected data isn’t clear. At least Tesla has demonstrated that their data collection is for training their full self-driving capability. That represents tremendous end-user value, in…

> That represents tremendous end-user value, in my opinion.

It represents tremendous value for Tesla. But they will do their best to prevent the end-user from benefiting from it, and extract every cent they can: https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-bans-customers-self-dr...

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#160

Post by bwb »

JohnFen wrote: post #157
bwb wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep I understand your POV, I am just saying I am not sure you should have that level of control depending on the data :)

But why do you think I should be forced to reveal anything?

You are not being forced to reveal anything :). That is coming from your standing POV that this data is yours.

Look at it from the perspective the data is not anyone's to start. The data is something you played a role in creating but you do not own. Next, how do you decide who controls and gets access to which parts of the data and what are the reasons behind that?

Data that identifies you might own and keep private.

Data that can help the manufacturer improve the product/services they might get.

Data that can help society/gov they might get.

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