Ketamine has 'fast-acting benefits' for depression • Hacker News Board

Re: Ketamine has 'fast-acting benefits' for depression

#151

Post by logfromblammo » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 4:34 PM UTC

patricius wrote: post #82

jcora wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow look, an ancap in 2018!

Yeah. I feel pretty lonely here... :'(

Anarcho-capitalism largely depends on a belief that human nature is essentially good, and prone to spontaneous cooperation. It is also heavily dependent on reputation, which scales poorly, or on trustless technologies, which aren't yet mature.

I'm still anarchist in 2018, but I haven't been anywhere near the an-cap territory of it since around 2006. Sticking to a political dogma out in the libertarian hinterlands is really only good for pointlessly arguing with other libertarians on the Internet.

That can be fun sometimes, but it's not as entertaining as it used to be, what with everyone pointing at Twitler and saying "You see? This is exactly as (insert libertarian variant) predicted!"

Re: Ketamine has 'fast-acting benefits' for depression

#152

Post by nylonstrung » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 4:38 PM UTC

ada1981 wrote: post #97

sgift wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How often did you have depression? Especially major depressive episodes where you have trouble to even motivate yourself to move out of the bed or do ANYTHING but just "exist" and even that seems hard? If the answer is zero (which I think it is) do those who have it a favor and shut up. Depression is hard enough without "you just have to exercise, huahua" comments.

I over came decades of suicidal depression (as well as schizophrenia and bipolar) with a self concocted protocol which included psychedelics and now don't take traditional meds. I read the OPs intention as "use K to get the person back from the bottom of depression and then leverage that boost in mood to start a habit of excersize" That seems reasonable and a good approach. You want to reinvest the motivation and bet…

Can you explain your protocol? That's pretty promising. I've had some good results to date but not sure how to use them in a more disciplined way to create permanent results

Re: Ketamine has 'fast-acting benefits' for depression

#153

Post by nylonstrung » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 4:40 PM UTC

man2525 wrote: post #135

odammit wrote: post #113

Don’t get caught in a k-hole or it might have some fast acting disadvantages for depression.

I was wondering about this. A co-worker's daughter was given ketamine during a spinal tap. After the procedure, she said that she no longer felt real.

That sounds like a case of depersonalization/derealization which dissociatives are sometimes known to produce

Re: Ketamine has 'fast-acting benefits' for depression

#154

Post by patricius » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 4:41 PM UTC

Fnoord wrote: post #143

logfromblammo wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keeping them as they are also has serious consequences that are rarely examined, or even raised for consideration. The public interest is for medical treatments to have the following qualities: safe, effective, affordable. The business interest for healthcare providers is for medical treatments to have the following property: profitable. Those interests only partially overlap. It is possible to imagine many different…

> Keeping them as they are also has serious consequences that are rarely examined, or even raised for consideration. Yes, but the burden of proof lies with those who prefer an alternative. If you want to demonstrate an alternative is better, you need an honest and in depth comparison with the current. Just saying "the current sucks" isn't an argument. I do agree it is difficult for drugs like ketamine, psilocybin, an…

> Yes, but the burden of proof lies with those who prefer an alternative. If you want to demonstrate an alternative is better, you need an honest and in depth comparison with the current. Just saying "the current sucks" isn't an argument.

That burden of proof lay originally with those that introduced, e.g., the FDA. We could go back to investigate whether we find that proof sufficient, if any was even provided, but your interpretation of the proof would perhaps be different than mine.

But decisions like creating an FDA are not based on proof, I would argue. It is based on other factors, especially on what can give government more power and what people will vote for. The average voter does not investigate any proof on the matter, but instead rely solely on gut feeling, for instance the feeling that drug companies are greedy enough to deliberately release drugs they know will harm people.

Re: Ketamine has 'fast-acting benefits' for depression

#155

Post by jtmcmc » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 4:42 PM UTC

marsrover wrote: post #150

NeutronStar wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imho, dissos are for short term depression fixing, you need them psychedelics to open your mind for long term.

Just for a little anecdotal evidence: I ate some psychedelic mushrooms multiple times about 8 years and and haven't been depressed since. I was previously diagnosed with clinical depression and took a moderate amount of Seroquel for it. I haven't taken anything since and I've been great.

counter anecdote i know massive amounts of people who have taken psychedelics that are depressed.

similarly for ketamine.

Re: Ketamine has 'fast-acting benefits' for depression

#156

Post by hcbdb » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 4:42 PM UTC

NeutronStar wrote: post #142

rincebrain wrote: post #140

I've posted this in other ketamine news stories before, but I'm offering it as a firsthand testimonial here. Ketamine was both the best and most depressing depression treatment option I've ever tried. Within a couple of weeks after having had the initial round of six treatments in two weeks, I was the most functional and productive human being I've _ever_ been - things that used to be impossible or utterly agonizing…

Imho, dissos are for short term depression fixing, you need them psychedelics to open your mind for long term.

Seconded. Try mushrooms, acid, or DMT. Maybe mushrooms if it’s your first time. Watch some trip report videos on YouTube to get an idea of what you’re in for.

It doesn’t “cure” depression... it’s more like it gives you an audience with... something... that then tells you exactly what you need to know about life, the universe, and everything. It’s up to you to then make sense of it, integrate, and execute, which can in itself be difficult for people.

It’s not a cure, it’s a debugger for your brain.

Re: Ketamine has 'fast-acting benefits' for depression

#157

Post by jmcgough » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 4:49 PM UTC

herbst wrote: post #102

toomanybeersies wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mowing up a gram of ket every weekend is going to kill any therapeutic benefits you get from it. That's different to a small dose once a month in a medically supervised environment. One big problem with recreational drugs (from personal experience) is that you get conditioned to them if you overuse them, then life seems sort of shit without them. With MDMA, you can even permanently lose the magic if you take too much…

Pretty sure the permanent damage thing is mostly a myth except you talk about a Seratonin syndrome which however doesn't increase in probability with the frequency you take it (mdma) I am not sure what the medical amount for ketamin would be, but i would think the average is more around 100mg a month (and using about every 3) within my circle. Which is not exactly that much. As far as I know are long term studies sti…

I haven't kept up with the research since graduating, but there have been studies that showed damage to serotonin receptors from repeated mdma usage.

Re: Ketamine has 'fast-acting benefits' for depression

#158

Post by jtmcmc » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 4:49 PM UTC

senorjazz wrote: post #79

pw wrote: post #7

My girlfriend receives ketamine treatment for her depression, so I’ve the results first hand. It’s truly astounding. She’s seen more improvement from the ketamine than from a decade of psychotherapy and traditional psychopharmacology. The only downside is the cost (it’s not covered by insurance) and the potential that there are long term side effects that have yet to be discovered. We pay $375 for a 40-minute infusio…

> and the potential that there are long term side effects that have yet to be discovered. Not for medical which is maybe what you are referring to. But long term (recreational) ketamine use (abuse) is well known. Perhaps down to the method of injection (nasal) or the impurities in illicit ketamine, but there is a lot of information on bladder problems, stomach cramps along with heavy addiction

it seems likely to be the ketamine - http://ajp.amjpathol.org/article/S0002-9440(16)00073-0/fullt...

Re: Ketamine has 'fast-acting benefits' for depression

#159

Post by toomanybeersies » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 4:49 PM UTC

mmcwilliams wrote: post #120

toomanybeersies wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ket will set you back anywhere from $50-$150 per gram, depending on where in the world you are, and is of varying quality. It looks like they're using up to 1/2 a gram for treatment. I think the most of that $375 goes towards staffing costs, rather than the drug itself. Ketamine though legitimate channels costs about $5-$10 per gram from what I've heard.

Do you have a source on that 1/2 gram number? My reading has lead me to believe that a typical therapeutic dose for these treatments is between 60-75mg. I could be way off, though.

I was looking at studies earlier today, and the upper limit (assuming a 100 kg person) was 0.5 g from one of the studies.

Re: Ketamine has 'fast-acting benefits' for depression

#160

Post by logfromblammo » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 4:50 PM UTC

Fnoord wrote: post #143

logfromblammo wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keeping them as they are also has serious consequences that are rarely examined, or even raised for consideration. The public interest is for medical treatments to have the following qualities: safe, effective, affordable. The business interest for healthcare providers is for medical treatments to have the following property: profitable. Those interests only partially overlap. It is possible to imagine many different…

> Keeping them as they are also has serious consequences that are rarely examined, or even raised for consideration. Yes, but the burden of proof lies with those who prefer an alternative. If you want to demonstrate an alternative is better, you need an honest and in depth comparison with the current. Just saying "the current sucks" isn't an argument. I do agree it is difficult for drugs like ketamine, psilocybin, an…

US government is not set up to A/B test the efficacy of its own agencies.

You can't set up an alternative to the FDA in order to test it, because the FDA is the supreme dictator over the regulatory domain, and you can't get around Mom saying "no" by asking Dad behind her back.

You can, however, look at the European pharmaceuticals regime, and note that an identical drug costs three times in the US the amount it costs in France.

Clearly, the FDA is not optimal. Equally clearly, we do not demand meta-studies proving that the FDA itself is safe and effective for its stated purpose.