Ketamine has 'fast-acting benefits' for depression • Hacker News Board

Re: Ketamine has 'fast-acting benefits' for depression

#81

Post by maxerickson » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 12:33 PM UTC

TTPrograms wrote: post #22

If you're an American, every time you read a new article on Ketamine for depression your thought should be "Jeese, healthcare is screwed up". Pharma companies don't benefit from getting Ketamine approved (since it's no longer patent protected), so no one is putting it through FDA for depression. As a result insurance will never cover it (under the current model). The reason this treatment isn't mainstream isn't becau…

Is ketamine approved/endorsed for treating depression in some other countries?

I would think given compelling enough research that there would be plenty of private foundation dollars to complete trials.

Re: Ketamine has 'fast-acting benefits' for depression

#82

Post by patricius » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 12:37 PM UTC

jcora wrote: post #77

patricius wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. Just because a thing exists (the FDA or taxes for instance), doesn't make it a good thing.

Wow look, an ancap in 2018!

Yeah. I feel pretty lonely here... :'(

Re: Ketamine has 'fast-acting benefits' for depression

#83

Post by hssys » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 12:54 PM UTC

TTPrograms wrote: post #22

If you're an American, every time you read a new article on Ketamine for depression your thought should be "Jeese, healthcare is screwed up". Pharma companies don't benefit from getting Ketamine approved (since it's no longer patent protected), so no one is putting it through FDA for depression. As a result insurance will never cover it (under the current model). The reason this treatment isn't mainstream isn't becau…

If that is the case then why is this not widely available in the UK?

Re: Ketamine has 'fast-acting benefits' for depression

#84

Post by herbst » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 1:07 PM UTC

themodelplumber wrote: post #15

Ketamine is an anesthetic. Has anyone compared it to e.g. ibuprofen for this use case? Ibuprofen works very well for me when experiencing depressive symptoms. I'm down to about 2h max per depressive episode (logged at 10-30 depressing thoughts per minute, compared to none after). Mechanism intuitively "feels" inflammatory and looking at my logs seems related to exhaustion due to over-productivity, lack of rest, etc.

I never noticed a anti depressive use of ibuprofen. Ketamine however actively puts you into a 'better mind space'

Re: Ketamine has 'fast-acting benefits' for depression

#85

Post by herbst » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 1:11 PM UTC

Just as a different perspective ketamine is (and was) pretty common in my circle and the idea that it works as anti depressant slowly faded.

It never really worked for me as that, at least not more than lsd or so would. And some friends claim that it has way less effect on them today even thought it seemed have to worked before.

It may is the abuse (probably higher amount on some occasions) it may are long term effects.

But it surely is not the magic cure some make it out to be.

Re: Ketamine has 'fast-acting benefits' for depression

#86

Post by psyc » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 1:18 PM UTC

sneak wrote: post #47

pw wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a chemist but according to the providers I’ve talked to the recreational dose is an order of magnitude larger than that given for depression. My understanding is the dose for depression is relatively small (even compared to what’s used during, say, anaesthesia).

Not an order of magnitude. Maybe 1.5-2x. Antidepressant doses are not far off of recreational for most recreational users. The recreational doses are also relatively small (10-50%) compared to anesthetic doses, too. Being unconscious isn’t the recreational user’s aim.

I've had K for anesthesia at the oral surgeon's, and it did not make me unconscious. It put me in a K hole. I was conscious the way you're conscious in a narrative dream. I have pretty clear memories of the experience (trip) - just no memory of my teeth being extracted.

Re: Ketamine has 'fast-acting benefits' for depression

#87

Post by mabbo » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 1:19 PM UTC

pw wrote: post #7

My girlfriend receives ketamine treatment for her depression, so I’ve the results first hand. It’s truly astounding. She’s seen more improvement from the ketamine than from a decade of psychotherapy and traditional psychopharmacology. The only downside is the cost (it’s not covered by insurance) and the potential that there are long term side effects that have yet to be discovered. We pay $375 for a 40-minute infusio…

> We pay $375 for a 40-minute infusion

Having no knowledge on the matter, what's the price comparison to just buying ketamine illegally and taking it without a doctor's help?

Depression is like (or possibly is) a form of chronic pain. People suffering from it severely might be willing to do anything for relief. Here's good information that a currently-illegal drug can help but if you want to do it legally you might need to take on a third job just to pay the costs.

It reminds me a bit of the South Park episode[0] where 'concentrated dose of about $180,000 shot directly into the bloodstream' is discovered as the cure to AIDS. Volunteers inform poverty-stricken Africa that all those suffering from AIDS have to do is inject themselves with piles of cash.

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonsil_Trouble

Re: Ketamine has 'fast-acting benefits' for depression

#88

Post by psyc » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 1:21 PM UTC

themodelplumber wrote: post #15

Ketamine is an anesthetic. Has anyone compared it to e.g. ibuprofen for this use case? Ibuprofen works very well for me when experiencing depressive symptoms. I'm down to about 2h max per depressive episode (logged at 10-30 depressing thoughts per minute, compared to none after). Mechanism intuitively "feels" inflammatory and looking at my logs seems related to exhaustion due to over-productivity, lack of rest, etc.

Ketamine isn't a pain reliever. It's a dissociative hallucinogen. It works by disconnecting you from sensory input and putting you in something like a lucid dream.

Re: Ketamine has 'fast-acting benefits' for depression

#89

Post by OldSchoolJohnny » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 1:24 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #40

proverbialbunny wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't ketamine stimulate growth in the same areas of the brain that exercise does, and does therapy prescribe routine daily exercise? I can imagine there being a great short term benefit to ketamine, as people who are severely depressed can't exercise due to the depression. Has there been any mention switching from ketamine to daily exercise, or doing both?

I know exercise is good for depression, but this is an extremely patronising response to someone else's description of their medical treatment.

Well that'll teach that poor bastard to ask a question here, good job!

Re: Ketamine has 'fast-acting benefits' for depression

#90

Post by ergothus » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 1:24 PM UTC

wjnc wrote: post #43

saasthrowaway3 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think something like "FDA-approval of Ketamine" could be successfully crowdfunded?

What I do not understand from a market perspective is why insurers don't cooperate more to fund such research. If a treatment goes from 20k to 1k p.a. the benefits for insurers are clear. They could even fund such research in an equity-fashion, that way steering clear of anti-competition law and free-rider problems (just sell it to the non-cooperators for 20k).

That is an incentive to insurers only if they are paying the price or if the lower costs to a specific group of consumers increases their market share. Since most costs are passed on to the consumers and most consumers don't get to pick their insurance (in the U.S.) , the incentives aren't there.