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Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

danluu.com

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Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#151
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it different?

In meric's model, the student who get good grades aren't the same ones achieving mastery. In mafribe's, they are.

I must insist although "achieving mastery" is clearer than "knowing the content", I meant the same. It would probably help if I wrap "knowing" in asterisks like "knowing the content".

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate these reductive COL adjustments. They're preposterous. Even if you assume that all your expenses are linearly multiplied (hint: Amazon costs the same no matter where you live), your savings are a lot more afterwards. If you were living on $40k/yr in Kansas City, you could move to SF and suddenly be saving $80k/yr. Would you really rather have $600k in Kansas City than $1 million in SF?

This adjustment is on the extreme end to be sure. If you make 80K where I am and live in the square footage I do, a comparable place in SF is around 3K* more expensive per month. So there's a very real, ~36K negative adjustment to that 120K SF salary for me. *editted

> So there's a very real, ~36K negative adjustment

After tax.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#153
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally disagree. Housing is such an over riding cost that no amount of things you can buy on Amazon will save you. The housing prices are rising so fast in SF that it makes estimates like this one LOW. you would be unlikely to save any money at all living in SF on 150k but Kansas has such a wide variety of hosing options that range form super cheap to substantially affordable that you could easily save as much or…

> you would be unlikely to save any money at all living in SF on 150k This statement is farcical. You do realize that the median wage in SF is less than $100k. How do you think those people are living? Have you actually lived in SF or NYC? You're totally out of touch with the actual costs. Yes, housing is expensive. But you can still easily get a solid apartment for $3k/m. Add in another $2k/m for food (high!) and th…

> Yes, housing is expensive. But you can still easily get a solid apartment for $3k/m.

Oh great thanks

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#154
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But isn't OmniCorp married to their devs too? Those devs probably took a while to get up to speed on the proprietary stack, and outside devs would have a ramp up time. Not to mention outside devs would be hesitant to take the job seeing as they'd get stuck learning proprietary technology making them less mobile.

True, but you can't re-negotiate your salary once you're in the job. So OmniCorp has all the leverage there.

Do they? If you're the one developer in the world keeping their tech going, and the nearest next developer is 6 months of ramp up time away (plus the time for the hiring process), you'd have some leverage.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#155
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that in order to link them together one must first understand the CS concepts and their uses. Once a person has that understanding, it becomes trivial to know when a naive solution is no longer the right approach. Once a normal person has the ability to see problem solving like that, they've pretty much got it. That's not to say there's not a difference between all possible solutions and the people tryi…

I get where your coming from, but many people can get all the individual concepts and still not make the connection. If they want to double X, they are happy to use X + X, 2 * X, or X It's probably a learnable skill, but it's just not directly part of CS classes. Someone can learn X XOR 1 is the same as X MOD 2, it's another to use XOR when they can't recall the MOD symbol.

Maybe I'm missing something but in your two examples, what you refer to as skill is just recall. I would argue that in the context of alternative solutions, the skill would be knowing when a better alternative is needed when it isn't immediately obvious. If I knew mod wasn't available yet I neded an analogous operation finding an alternative is trivial even if I don't recall it. I wouldn't call that a skill.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually doesn't your experience hint at the opposite trend in the working sector? If everyone (roughly) either fails programming, or aces it, then the working professionals are the ones who passed AND excelled.

Oh if only that were true. I've worked with people in the past who know just enough to hack together a front end on top of a simple database, but who would completely fall apart when presented with anything more complex than that. These are the sort of people who when asked to build an internationalised website "solve" the problem by copying an entire PHP application into directories called "english" and "german" and…

There's that XKCD about asking how novice users solve computer problems. "I save the video to iCloud, then copy the url into this video downloader, then put the download into this transcription site, then upload that to..."

I think this is a big chunk of explaining how bad programming goes, too. It's not "too incompetent to build a thing", it's "incompetent enough that everything runs on voodoo and evil".

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the comments seem to be focusing on the supply side. I agree the demand side is probably the greater factor.

The focus is also similar to sports. There are very few 100 million dollar players, and there are very few high school kids that even become $1,000 players. While the story's about Google/Apple programmer's getting $150k are well and good, most hungry un-employed 40% unemployment under 25 world-wide kids these days, would be glad to get an indoor job for $10/hour. The sport analogy is excellent. Let's look at the hoo…

You created an account just to post this nonsense?

Edit: Oh, it's pretty obvious you're the work4beer guy from below, must have gotten banned already. I'm guessing you're 17 and just got some rejection letters back. Or you're expecting acceptance letters. Either way the world doesn't work at all like you're imagining.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#158
post #15

I teach computer science at a well-known, large and mediocre university. I see bimodal grade distributions all the time. The more technical a subject, the more bimodal the grades. In fluff subjects like software engineering where grading relates to essay writing and group projects, grade distribution tends to be gaussian. OTOH in technical subjects where I grade by automated test suits, basically students fail almost…

Please show data to support claim.

Check out this paper, which inspired Jeff Atwood's "two humps" model of programming education: https://web.archive.org/web/20090401003425/http://www.cs.mdx...

It's been retracted, but it's the only case I've ever seen where I found the retraction unconvincing. The retraction effectively says "After this paper came out, I made a lot of wild claims about it that the data didn't support. Therefore ignore the paper, even though the results replicated successfully."

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#159
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$80k in Kansas City and $150k in San Francisco is exactly the same amount of money after accounting for differences in the cost of living. https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=$80000+salary+Kansas+C...

I hate these reductive COL adjustments. They're preposterous. Even if you assume that all your expenses are linearly multiplied (hint: Amazon costs the same no matter where you live), your savings are a lot more afterwards. If you were living on $40k/yr in Kansas City, you could move to SF and suddenly be saving $80k/yr. Would you really rather have $600k in Kansas City than $1 million in SF?

I've been looking at a move from a very low COL area to a very high one, recently, and this is spot on. But there's one huge caveat: you have to be willing to sacrifice on housing.

Housing will swallow everything in any real apples-to-apples comparison. But if you can accept that you'll be living in a much worse apartment, then the COL differences aren't as extreme as they're generally stated to be.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#160
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate these reductive COL adjustments. They're preposterous. Even if you assume that all your expenses are linearly multiplied (hint: Amazon costs the same no matter where you live), your savings are a lot more afterwards. If you were living on $40k/yr in Kansas City, you could move to SF and suddenly be saving $80k/yr. Would you really rather have $600k in Kansas City than $1 million in SF?

I totally disagree. Housing is such an over riding cost that no amount of things you can buy on Amazon will save you. The housing prices are rising so fast in SF that it makes estimates like this one LOW. you would be unlikely to save any money at all living in SF on 150k but Kansas has such a wide variety of hosing options that range form super cheap to substantially affordable that you could easily save as much or…

Housing is generally an investment, so what I'm dumping in my mortgage, I don't have to dump in retirement funds (assuming im planning on selling the place and moving out when I no longer care about big cities). So I literally don't mind dumping a million+ in my condo.

Second, even that million+ condo only cost me a third of my salary, including property tax and HoA after tax breaks and shit. Literally everything else is essentially fixed cost (eg: while labor for renovations is a bit more expensive, the bulk of the cost is in the materials, which are shipped from out of state in most cases). Cars aren't any more expensive, etc.

So when you're borderline, big cities (I'm on the east coast, but same applies) are totally not worth it. You'd be living paycheck to paycheck. But once you reach a threshold, it's just better.

Now there's remote work that messes up with all that math, obviously.

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