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Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

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Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#71

Post by morgante »

rajeshp1986 wrote: post #26

Funny thing that I was having a discussion with one of my friend who is in the middle of salary negotiation. The company is pushing him hard to accept the offer well below than his expectations and he was expecting more hike as he was relocating to bay area. He was quite disappointed that he didn't get the salary figure he was expecting but still wanted to accept the offer as he didn't want to loose the opportunity.…

> Why are they not transparent like finance guys, lawyers, doctors etc.

The average banker or lawyer is an order of magnitude better at negotiation and valuation than the average developer. It's literally their job. For a finance guy, not optimizing your compensation package is sacrilegious.

Meanwhile we have still have lots of developers who think it's absurd that they'd even be paid $100k and don't want to think about money at all. [0] They drag down compensation for themselves and for others.

Unfortunately it's not simply a matter of information. You can tell people that the market rate for their position is $200k/yr but they'll tell you that's absurd, that they think it's too much, or that they'd rather just focus on code.

Doctors solved this by sharply restricting supply and making it illegal to practice without being part of their cartel.

[0] Seriously, on HN people regularly complain about making too much. Even in this very thread you can find people who are skeptical of high salaries: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12588504

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#72

Post by jackmott »

mafribe wrote: post #15

I teach computer science at a well-known, large and mediocre university. I see bimodal grade distributions all the time. The more technical a subject, the more bimodal the grades. In fluff subjects like software engineering where grading relates to essay writing and group projects, grade distribution tends to be gaussian. OTOH in technical subjects where I grade by automated test suits, basically students fail almost…

Please show data to support claim.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#73

Post by Fiahil »

work4beer wrote: post #25
Fiahil wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Problem with coding is that there are 1st,2nd,3rd, and 4th level programmers. I'm a star-guy-from-big-name-cs-school, and I'm developing complex systems from scratch. However, few people from my promotion are actually doing that, most of them will work on mobile/front-end or small webservices in a random B2C startup (something that will fall into the hacking category?). Your school and your degree will only matter…

Say your Stanford or Harvard, your class-mate's will matter the rest of your life, and if you ever need a job, they help each other out. Teir 2/3 schools your out of luck, Tier one schools take care of their own. It's a club, and most people in the USA don't belong to the club.

This isn't my experience, at all, with "Tier 2/3" schools. I have yet to find a single one that doesn't have -at least- an alumni network.

Try to open your mind a little bit, and maybe you'll see that others do belong to a "club" even if it's not YOUR club.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#74

Post by jaggederest »

henrik_w wrote: post #58
charlesdm wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if you enjoy something, it's much easier to put a lot of time in to figure it out. For example, I became a software entrepreneur about five years ago making money from my own projects. Dealing with a lot of business related "work", I actually discovered I also really like law, in particular tax law. A friend of mine was a pretty good lawyer (hung up his hat to do more entrepreneurial stuff) and I occasionally a…

I think the question of whether anybody can get good at programming is very interesting. I often hear "anybody can do it, but you can only become really good if you enjoy it". So then the question is: why do you enjoy something? Are we born that way, or is it something we do? (I don't know what the answer is) Edit: also, it is interesting to replace "programmer" with "math professor". Can anybody become a good math p…

I'm not sure but I suspect that viewpoint has a massive effect.

It's similar to the old saw about growth vs fixed mindsets.

I often describe programming as "failing 99 times and succeeding the 100th time, and counting that as success". There are a lot of people who are not wired and acculturated to that sort of "success".

That said, I don't (obviously via the growth mindset) think it's a fixed quality, it's more of a learned and acquired routine.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#75

Post by alistproducer2 »

morgante wrote: post #66
pmorici wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$80k in Kansas City and $150k in San Francisco is exactly the same amount of money after accounting for differences in the cost of living. https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=$80000+salary+Kansas+C...

I hate these reductive COL adjustments. They're preposterous. Even if you assume that all your expenses are linearly multiplied (hint: Amazon costs the same no matter where you live), your savings are a lot more afterwards. If you were living on $40k/yr in Kansas City, you could move to SF and suddenly be saving $80k/yr. Would you really rather have $600k in Kansas City than $1 million in SF?

This adjustment is on the extreme end to be sure. If you make 80K where I am and live in the square footage I do, a comparable place in SF is around 3K* more expensive per month. So there's a very real, ~36K negative adjustment to that 120K SF salary for me.

*editted

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#76

Post by jaggederest »

morgante wrote: post #66
pmorici wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$80k in Kansas City and $150k in San Francisco is exactly the same amount of money after accounting for differences in the cost of living. https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=$80000+salary+Kansas+C...

I hate these reductive COL adjustments. They're preposterous. Even if you assume that all your expenses are linearly multiplied (hint: Amazon costs the same no matter where you live), your savings are a lot more afterwards. If you were living on $40k/yr in Kansas City, you could move to SF and suddenly be saving $80k/yr. Would you really rather have $600k in Kansas City than $1 million in SF?

It's as though people think that a car costs 45% as much in Kansas City.

Or, to use another analogy, it's like being the wealthiest man in a developing nation. There's no amount of money that can buy you reliable infrastructure in a place that fundamentally lacks it.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#77

Post by [deleted] »

morgante wrote: post #66
pmorici wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$80k in Kansas City and $150k in San Francisco is exactly the same amount of money after accounting for differences in the cost of living. https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=$80000+salary+Kansas+C...

I hate these reductive COL adjustments. They're preposterous. Even if you assume that all your expenses are linearly multiplied (hint: Amazon costs the same no matter where you live), your savings are a lot more afterwards. If you were living on $40k/yr in Kansas City, you could move to SF and suddenly be saving $80k/yr. Would you really rather have $600k in Kansas City than $1 million in SF?

[deleted]

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#78

Post by cwg999 »

morgante wrote: post #66
pmorici wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$80k in Kansas City and $150k in San Francisco is exactly the same amount of money after accounting for differences in the cost of living. https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=$80000+salary+Kansas+C...

I hate these reductive COL adjustments. They're preposterous. Even if you assume that all your expenses are linearly multiplied (hint: Amazon costs the same no matter where you live), your savings are a lot more afterwards. If you were living on $40k/yr in Kansas City, you could move to SF and suddenly be saving $80k/yr. Would you really rather have $600k in Kansas City than $1 million in SF?

I think generally when people respond with COL they are attempting to make themselves feel better about their life's insecurities. --- Such as the fact they don't live in SF or make that much. Best to ignore it, or state that the COL around SF is not as high, such as in Fremont.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#79

Post by [deleted] »

Amezarak wrote: post #55
jasode wrote: post #10

If there's a pronounced bimodal distribution, it seems like the biggest driver of it would be the lumping of various programmer specialties into one giant bucket. It seems like the 2 sub-buckets would be: 1) $100k or less: backoffice programmers where software itself is not the product sold. Also known as enterprisey/LOB/CRUD developers working outside Silicon Valley. (E.g. programmer working on mortgage servicing so…

I really think it's location, location, location, not necessarily whether or not the software is the product. I've worked for consulting companies, product companies, and right now I work for a sort-of back-office organization. The best I've been able to do, despite several years of experience, good references, inside connections, a graduate degree, and being pretty (I think, anyway) personable is...75k. And I don't…

[deleted]

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#80

Post by pmorici »

morgante wrote: post #66
pmorici wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$80k in Kansas City and $150k in San Francisco is exactly the same amount of money after accounting for differences in the cost of living. https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=$80000+salary+Kansas+C...

I hate these reductive COL adjustments. They're preposterous. Even if you assume that all your expenses are linearly multiplied (hint: Amazon costs the same no matter where you live), your savings are a lot more afterwards. If you were living on $40k/yr in Kansas City, you could move to SF and suddenly be saving $80k/yr. Would you really rather have $600k in Kansas City than $1 million in SF?

I totally disagree. Housing is such an over riding cost that no amount of things you can buy on Amazon will save you. The housing prices are rising so fast in SF that it makes estimates like this one LOW. you would be unlikely to save any money at all living in SF on 150k but Kansas has such a wide variety of hosing options that range form super cheap to substantially affordable that you could easily save as much or more that if you were living in SF on double the salary.

Edit: for the record I don't live in and have never been to Kansas City.

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