College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets • Hacker News Board

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#151

Post by jamesroseman » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 10:23 PM UTC

tinduck wrote: post #82

chris11 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think going to a better college would have made much of a difference in job opportunities? It seems like some of the larger tech companies do a lot of recruiting at state colleges.

Yes. A top tier college will get you out in front of more employers. I did my undergrad at a lower tier state commuter school, and I got my master's at a top 10 school in CS. It's night and day difference in how recruiters will treat you.

I would tentatively add a caveat to that.

> A top tier college will get you out in front of more employers...

...when you don't have anything more impressive than your college choice on your resume.

Harvard students will always beat out comparable state school students to get that Microsoft phone interview. But they won't always beat out the student who ran a full-scale web app after sophomore year to help students plan courses if they don't have comparable experience. Another thing I love about tech is as many strings as you can pull to get that initial phone interview, you're on your own from there. In my experience I've done general website applications and called up friends of friends and once you're staring at a whiteboard it makes no difference who you know or where you came from.

The two part related problem to this is a recruiting one. If you use a resume as a litmus test for "smart programmers" as opposed to those faking it, you're undoubtably going to get a bunch of people who went to the best possible schools. This also means you wind up with a lot of candidates who had the means to go to really good schools. Maybe there's someone just as smart at your local state school who couldn't afford CMU who would bring a completely different mindset and style of thinking, but you'll never find them.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#152

Post by Broken_Hippo » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 10:24 PM UTC

sotojuan wrote: post #17

In my experience the middle and higher income brackets (middle and upper middle suburban class) is the bracket that is hurt the most by college costs. Too rich for substantial need-based financial aid, too poor to pay without big loans. The only answer is merit scholarships, but those can't go for everyone, so you end up with moms taking their kids to 1000 summer activities so they're competitive :-) Here's a possibl…

unfortunately, many folks cannot start saving while their kids are young. It was the case for my parents. I qualified for free lunches for most of my childhood, and I have 2 younger siblings. I tried the cheapest college - in town, even, and they didn't provide loans to cover the costs. We were told my parents were expected to pay 10% of their before tax income to college due to the last year's tax returns.

The kid that graduated 2nd in the class had trouble getting a scholarship. He was afraid he wouldn't go to college because his family didn't have funds and despite his best efforts, he hadn't saved up enough money himself. He worked part-time through high school. I think he was barely above the cut-off for the need-based scholarships, and found the merit-based few and far between. He did find out in May our senior year that he finally found a full scholarship - at the same low-cost, in-town option I was going to.

The athletes, though, they had scholarships pretty early.

It hurts for everyone, and even the local choice isn't a good one. Even if folks that make it through can do well enough. I didn't stay in college (so few regrets on my end, I like my life), but the friend did rather well.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#153

Post by devishard » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 10:25 PM UTC

Steeeve wrote: post #135

This just isn't true. Compared to most of the U.S. I make a lot of money (Software Engineer in Silicon Valley). I have kids a few years from college, so this topic weighs on me. I ran my financials through Stanford's cost calculator (Stanford is among the most expensive schools), and my expected contribution would be under $10K / year. Yes, it costs $65K+ / year for tuition, housing, etc., but the reality is that tho…

1. Stanford is an outlier in terms of financial aid--they provide far more financial aid than most schools.

2. Good luck getting into Stanford.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#154

Post by bdcravens » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 10:25 PM UTC

Perhaps the key is something between a boot camp (I mean the coding kind, not the military kind) and a 4-year school? A lot of time and money is wasted on the culture of college (sports, activities, partying, Greek life, etc....) and it seems there's a lot of room for disruption.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#155

Post by bdcravens » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 10:26 PM UTC

Perhaps the key is something between a boot camp (I mean the coding kind, not the military kind) and a 4-year school? A lot of time and money is wasted on the culture of college (sports, activities, partying, Greek life, etc....) and it seems there's a lot of room for disruption.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#156

Post by tptacek » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 10:27 PM UTC

radarsat1 wrote: post #138

tptacek wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the word "deserve" has to factor into it, but there's an ROI function not only for your major, but for the college you choose to pursue that major at.

Agreed, but that's a problem . Or at least, as long as we decide that "music, art and liberal arts" are things we want people to be able to do . If we decide those are not good things for people to do, then sure, make it difficult for them, but at least let's put the cards on the table. Otherwise I find that this train of thought has a "blaming the victim" element to it that I find distasteful.

You've evaded my point. I'm saying, you can get a music degree without paying to do it at a top tier university.

With remunerative degrees, you can at least make the argument that selective schools gate selective employers, and so expensive colleges can be a necessity. But it's harder to make that argument for music or art.

The question isn't whether you should study art. It's how much of a premium you should pay to study it at an elite school.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#157

Post by aceinaday » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 10:33 PM UTC

akhilcacharya wrote: post #141

eanzenberg wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You wouldn't.. why?

1) I'm very concerned about the perception of having an AS. This may not be a rational concern, but I've removed it from my resume to reduce risk. 2) Opportunities at CC's are limited compared to even non-flagship state universities (no research, etc), although you can of course still get other opportunities at other local universities. 3) You're effectively tied to your state school. I'm lucky that NC has one well-r…

Why would you list an AS on your resume? If the idea is to transfer to one of the state schools and finish up there, wouldn't you just list your BS?

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#158

Post by hdx » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 10:35 PM UTC

I went to college and graduated with a Computer Engineering degree from SJSU without any financial help from my parents, the government or anybody else. Oh and I had to support my child from the second year on as well. It took me about 30% longer to finish it, and I was sleep deprived most of those years due to having to work AND go to school, but I graduated with $0 debt.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#159

Post by pvg » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 10:37 PM UTC

dv_dt wrote: post #136

tptacek wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't generally pull the trigger on six-figure medical or law school debt in your teens.

Ok, how about a straight undergrad budget at a public university. https://www.admission.ucla.edu/prospect/budget.htm Depending on circumstances $25k to $52k for next year with a 10% increase over the next three to four years... http://trends.collegeboard.org/college-pricing/figures-table...

The UC is the top tier of a multi-tiered public higher education system. A CA resident, even one set on a UC undergrad degree isn't going to end up $200k in debt or at minimum, can easily avoid it.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#160

Post by jbooth » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 10:41 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #127

dv_dt wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So at 17 or 18, with little life experience, students are supposed to make a financed $160k ($40*4) investment which may decide their economic fate for 20-30 years? Even with the help of parents and advisors to make predictions that isn't a good policy for the general case. (For one parents and advisor’s are also often wrong). There are ways to achieve good outcomes in the current system, but that is not the same as…

You don't generally pull the trigger on six-figure medical or law school debt in your teens.

Lots of people do at 22-23, aka before a car rental company will give you a decent rate based on their actuarial models of judgment.