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College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

nytimes.com

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Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#81

Post by gist »

dv_dt wrote: post #65
gist wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with college is not that you have "significant debt". The problem is choosing majors and/or a career path that doesn't allow you to pay off that debt. My wife has "significant debt" from college and medical school (roughly 200k) that she will pay off over 20 to 30 years (or whatever it is). However she earns a good salary for what she does. As a result the cost of the education is similar to a cost of doi…

So at 17 or 18, with little life experience, students are supposed to make a financed $160k ($40*4) investment which may decide their economic fate for 20-30 years? Even with the help of parents and advisors to make predictions that isn't a good policy for the general case. (For one parents and advisor’s are also often wrong). There are ways to achieve good outcomes in the current system, but that is not the same as…

> So at 17 or 18, with little life experience, students are supposed to make a financed

Well a good start might be simply avoiding majors that you know will go nowhere, don't you think? Like music, art and certain liberal arts. Even when I went to school it was known to be hard to get a job in those fields. But yet people still choose them and tried to "follow their passion". My passion was to learn something where I could earn a living. And I am having plenty of fun doing that.

Of course you can't predict the future. But you can certainly improve your chances by giving some thought to what is not a good choice and hasn't ever really been.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#82

Post by tinduck »

chris11 wrote: post #59
grimberg wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a similar situation less a local top-10 local university. I could go locally and walk out debt-free (actually ended up about $10k positive) or go to a better university (Illinois or Georgia Tech) and walk out with ~100k in debt. A bunch of very sharp people of modest means stayed local. Those that didn't had parents taking second mortgages to help pay. Suffice to say, I went local and things worked out in the e…

Do you think going to a better college would have made much of a difference in job opportunities? It seems like some of the larger tech companies do a lot of recruiting at state colleges.

Yes. A top tier college will get you out in front of more employers. I did my undergrad at a lower tier state commuter school, and I got my master's at a top 10 school in CS. It's night and day difference in how recruiters will treat you.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#83

Post by mymosh »

sotojuan wrote: post #17

In my experience the middle and higher income brackets (middle and upper middle suburban class) is the bracket that is hurt the most by college costs. Too rich for substantial need-based financial aid, too poor to pay without big loans. The only answer is merit scholarships, but those can't go for everyone, so you end up with moms taking their kids to 1000 summer activities so they're competitive :-) Here's a possibl…

> Too rich for substantial need-based financial aid, too poor to pay without big loans.

That's the problem with being middle-class. Anybody who really cares will abandon you for those who need it more. -- Mr. Bergstrom

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#84

Post by mmanfrin »

sotojuan wrote: post #17

In my experience the middle and higher income brackets (middle and upper middle suburban class) is the bracket that is hurt the most by college costs. Too rich for substantial need-based financial aid, too poor to pay without big loans. The only answer is merit scholarships, but those can't go for everyone, so you end up with moms taking their kids to 1000 summer activities so they're competitive :-) Here's a possibl…

This is one of those areas where California just plain outshines every other state by a huge margin -- the CC, CSU, and UC systems are generally accessible (although UCs have gotten much more expensive, especially recently -- but they're also among the top schools in the world in specific fields).

For instance, I got in to Cal Poly, which ranks very high on many lists for Engineering, and it cost me (a California citizen) $1400 a quarter.

I also attended the local CC, and prices there were even cheaper, something like $18 a credit. The books were more expensive than the class. It was a pretty common thing among my (upper middle class) high school classmates for people to attend a CC for 2 years, then transfer to a prestigious UC. They'd have to pay that UC-level fee for two years, but the first 2 years of college were affordable enough for people to put themselves through school.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#85

Post by djb_hackernews »

jamesroseman wrote: post #62
sotojuan wrote: post #17

In my experience the middle and higher income brackets (middle and upper middle suburban class) is the bracket that is hurt the most by college costs. Too rich for substantial need-based financial aid, too poor to pay without big loans. The only answer is merit scholarships, but those can't go for everyone, so you end up with moms taking their kids to 1000 summer activities so they're competitive :-) Here's a possibl…

That experience sounds remarkably familiar. I know here in Mass at least UMass Amherst has a remarkably good computer science program for how cheap it can be (if you qualify for the right tuition credit programs by scoring well on standardized tests in high school). Though it's a poor indicator of an undergrad program, their CS grad program was ranked #25 in the country. While I understand your point, I take some iss…

I did CS undergrad at UMass Amherst and I can tell you A LOT of students (and probably the OP) confuse a competitive program with a qualitatively better program. UMass Amherst rejects a lot of applicants, but that doesn't make it good.

Recently UMass started to take Computer Science seriously, gave it its own school and is accepting a lot more students. I went to an alumn event last year and the enrollment numbers of the last 10 years shows hockey stick growth.

We'll see if these moves improve or dilute the brand.

In hindsight going to UMass for CS was a good decision, but back then my world was small and didn't know all of my options.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#86

Post by niftich »

nine_k wrote: post #43

College may become unaffordable, but education should not. With price pressure like this, I suspect online and other forms of post-high-school education will become more and more valuable. Employers will start looking at them with more attention, and definitely certificates of passing serious exams will become (more) valuable. Of course, these exams certificates are not going to be free, and even the online courses a…

College/University has not solely been about education in a long time. It's about signalling [1][2], and therefore it's a competitive advantage. The accessibility of signalling is inversely proportional to its value -- it's no longer exclusive. This happens with certifications too.

[1] https://www.jstor.org/stable/1882010 [2] http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2014/04/bryan_caplan_on.htm...

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#87

Post by branchless »

gist wrote: post #39
tptacek wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My impression from my peer group is that most people from my generation that went to college take on significant debt to do it. Isn't this basically the normal path people take to pay their way through college? (I didn't go.) Having kids is obviously a deeply personal decision and don't think I'm second-guessing you, but college funding is probably not a dispositive concern.

The problem with college is not that you have "significant debt". The problem is choosing majors and/or a career path that doesn't allow you to pay off that debt. My wife has "significant debt" from college and medical school (roughly 200k) that she will pay off over 20 to 30 years (or whatever it is). However she earns a good salary for what she does. As a result the cost of the education is similar to a cost of doi…

See here is your problem. You think it's fine that college costs reflect the return over a working lifetime for the skills gained.

That is credit creation right there. It allows the pulling forward of demand to capture labour over a lifetime for credit creators (not intermediaries) - the banks.

Until we tackle money creation housing and college, two essentials - that's why they lend into them - will always reflect the total potential income over a person's working life.

If we double productivity rentiers will get the same % of your labour. This means everyone will always and forever be under the thumb of usurers.

By design.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#88

Post by [deleted] »

jamesroseman wrote: post #13

I think a reality that will hopefully soon catch up with societal stigma in the United States is that college isn't right for everyone. I understand this as a separate point from college being unattainably expensive, but it is an important point. I have friends who would be mechanics, Peace Corps volunteers, electricians, or plumbers if they hadn't instead gone to a private 4-year institution, pressured to attend the…

[deleted]

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#89

Post by bpchaps »

jamesroseman wrote: post #13

I think a reality that will hopefully soon catch up with societal stigma in the United States is that college isn't right for everyone. I understand this as a separate point from college being unattainably expensive, but it is an important point. I have friends who would be mechanics, Peace Corps volunteers, electricians, or plumbers if they hadn't instead gone to a private 4-year institution, pressured to attend the…

Absolutely. Most of those my age who didn't go into tech and got 'regular' jobs are absolutely filled to the brim with debt with zero way out. Those here in Chicago who have tech jobs aren't able to find jobs that match their skill.

My highschool was mostly in the lower/lower-middle class range with upper-middle in honor's programs. Multiple times per year, they gave presentations about the absolute, unwavering importance of a college education with money rather than success as the reason to go. Just about every student I've talked to who actually went through it is absolutely miserable - especially those who went to a university rather than the local community college. The only people who didn't have this issue were the honor's students, who either received scholarships or had money already. I seriously question the judgement, noise and in some ways, misery caused by those presentations.

Every time career comes up with my family and old classmates, I'm still looked down on for not having a degree... Even though I'm objectively more successful than the people telling me to go to college..

The culture around college necessity is incredibly frustrating. To make matters worse, when the subject comes up, many people say things like "Not going to college worked for you, but it tends not to for everybody else and it worked for me blah blah." It doesn't ever, every push the conversation forward. It's a weird, frustrating form of survivor-bias.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#90

Post by throwawaysocks »

jamesroseman wrote: post #13

I think a reality that will hopefully soon catch up with societal stigma in the United States is that college isn't right for everyone. I understand this as a separate point from college being unattainably expensive, but it is an important point. I have friends who would be mechanics, Peace Corps volunteers, electricians, or plumbers if they hadn't instead gone to a private 4-year institution, pressured to attend the…

> I think a reality that will hopefully soon catch up with societal stigma in the United States is that college isn't right for everyone

The idea that this stigma exists is mostly a conservative pundit talking point used to justify cutting education budgets. If you look at labor market data, it's unsubstantiated. And if you visit middle America, you'll find plenty of people with disdain for college degrees.

The United States doesn't have an over-abundance of people with tertiary degrees.

The USA in the bottom half of the developed-world pack for 25-34 year olds, less than half of whom obtained ANY form of post-highschool education -- including community college.

More importantly, many high-growth fields are also high-tech and require tertiary education or exceptional self-teaching.

The problem isn't an over-supply of college educated workers. Rather, the problem is an unwillingness to subsidize tertiary education together with the misconception that college without accompanying training in employable skills is a worthwhile investment.

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