A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage • Hacker News Board

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#151

Post by yanilkr » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 7:56 PM UTC

enraged_camel wrote: post #114

yanilkr wrote: post #95

A Basic Income from Govt comes at a huge price of loss of individual liberty. If someone gives you free stuff, they will expect controls like where you are allowed to spend your money and time. This model of taking from the productive sources and rewarding everyone else will have to break at a certain point. how come you get rewarded for enjoying the gossip column and I spend extra effort doing something else which i…

>>A Basic Income from Govt comes at a huge price of loss of individual liberty. If someone gives you free stuff, they will expect controls like where you are allowed to spend your money and time. No. The entire point of basic income is that it is unconditional . You get a check from the government at frequent intervals. Unlike food stamps, you can spend the money on whatever you want.

Do you think I can get the check in America and go and spend it outside America?

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#152

Post by yanilkr » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 7:56 PM UTC

Eerie wrote: post #121

yanilkr wrote: post #95

A Basic Income from Govt comes at a huge price of loss of individual liberty. If someone gives you free stuff, they will expect controls like where you are allowed to spend your money and time. This model of taking from the productive sources and rewarding everyone else will have to break at a certain point. how come you get rewarded for enjoying the gossip column and I spend extra effort doing something else which i…

>This model of taking from the productive sources and rewarding everyone else will have to break at a certain point. how come you get rewarded for enjoying the gossip column and I spend extra effort doing something else which is harder and my earnings are taken away? That's an argument that can be made against ABSOLUTELY ANY TAXATION.

did we ever try no taxation?

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#153

Post by earlz » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 7:57 PM UTC

kinghajj wrote: post #102

harryh wrote: post #2

$10,000 * US_POPULATION ~= $3.2T ~= The total annual tax revenue of the US federal government. Just something to keep in mind when discussing this topic.

Aren't UBI proposals designed so that those who earn more than the yearly stipend from employment don't receive it?

No, UBI is everyone receives X amount of money, no questions asked. The theory is that the tax increases etc balance this out for the middle class so that they effectively earn the same amount of money with the UBI income

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#154

Post by tikhonj » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 7:57 PM UTC

a3n wrote: post #43

kough wrote: post #29

> No one wants to hire them at a high minimum wage, especially when locals are readily available The main drawback to a minimum wage is that it artificially increases the cost of labor, to the point where it's no longer worth it to an employer to hire a low-output employee. I think we'd all agree that increasing employment is a good goal, but an increased minimum wage actually hinders progress on that front. As the m…

> The main drawback to a minimum wage is that it artificially increases the cost of labor, And? Why is that artificial increase a problem. Every law on the books is an artificial act. I don't see many people wringing their hands over the mortgage interest deduction, another of those artificial changes to the economy.

Really? I read complaints about the mortgage interest deduction all the time. I mean, subsidizing home ownership isn't exactly an obviously worthy goal in and of itself and it creates weird incentives.

The difference in popular discourse is threefold: the mortgage interest deduction is less of a blue/red team tribal marker; it isn't as morally charged an issue (the arguments against it are more economic in nature than moralistic); a disproportionate number of the people who would be complaining about it are homeowners themselves and therefore heavily incentivized to keep it around, regardless of its economic effect.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#155

Post by imtringued » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 7:57 PM UTC

kapnobatairza wrote: post #67

harryh wrote: post #2

$10,000 * US_POPULATION ~= $3.2T ~= The total annual tax revenue of the US federal government. Just something to keep in mind when discussing this topic.

Does a basic income need to be generated directly through government spending? With all the talk about QE and "helicopter money" over the past 8-9 years, I'm curious why very few have considering the merits of a basic income through inflation. What if the central bank had a mechanism to fund special "basic income" accounts at banks on a yearly basis... These accounts would not be considered deposits but would rather…

The effects of Quantitative Easing can be reversed by the central bank because it's merely an asset swap. It's only a temporary measure.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#156

Post by usefulcat » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 7:58 PM UTC

alttab wrote: post #57

empath75 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The top marginal tax rate would have to be dramatically increased to pay for it. Also, you'd have to increase capital gains and estate taxes. Make no mistake, basic minimum income would be a massive redistribution of wealth. I'm in favor of it, but let's not pretend we can pay for it by shuffling around some social safety net spending.

It would completely remove the necessity to be productive. That can't turn out well. What's preventing me from having as many babies as I can knowing that they too will not have to work or find a job to be supported? I know this won't work at scale, because I understand math.

Wait, are you really suggesting that people decide how many children to have based on whether they believe those children will have to work when they become adults?

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#157

Post by msellout » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 7:59 PM UTC

alttab wrote: post #73

a3n wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The main drawback to a minimum wage is that it artificially increases the cost of labor, And? Why is that artificial increase a problem. Every law on the books is an artificial act. I don't see many people wringing their hands over the mortgage interest deduction, another of those artificial changes to the economy.

The mortgage interest deduction "hurts" only government tax revenues. Raising the tide on minimum wage impacts every business that has employees, regardless of what their cost structure is. What if your business worked in such a way that a single employee wouldn't even produce $15 of revenue in an hour? You can't lose money on every sale and make up for it in volume. The artificial increase is a problem because it go…

Mortgage interest deduction also inflates home prices, benefitting home sellers and harming everyone else. A home buyer might think they're benefitting, but in fact the seller simply increased price until the deduction was of net zero benefit for the buyer.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#158

Post by saalweachter » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 7:59 PM UTC

harryh wrote: post #2

$10,000 * US_POPULATION ~= $3.2T ~= The total annual tax revenue of the US federal government. Just something to keep in mind when discussing this topic.

The total personal income in the United States is $14.7T (2014); so a $3.2T spending program amounts to a ~22% flat income tax.

Which is interesting when you consider that you'd (presumably) be dissolving Social Security and Welfare in favor of UBI; Social Security is already 12.4%.

What's also fun with UBI is that you then get to assign a numeric value to how socialist your country currently is, eg, 22% socialist. (Personally I'd go for something closer to 30% socialist.)

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#159

Post by msellout » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 7:59 PM UTC

alttab wrote: post #100

spankalee wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mortgage interest deduction disadvantages renters compared to owners. Subsidizing home ownership effectively taxes renting.

Disagree. I've owned 3 homes and my mortgage interest deduction made no difference on whether or not I purchased. The difference between renting and owning is income, savings rate, and lifestyle. If you can't afford to buy, you either don't make enough or don't save enough. It's the down payment that separates a lot of renters and buyers. If you are arguing homes are expensive, I'd argue that $15 minimum wage isn't h…

It changed the amount you paid.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#160

Post by branchless » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 7:59 PM UTC

kough wrote: post #29

> No one wants to hire them at a high minimum wage, especially when locals are readily available The main drawback to a minimum wage is that it artificially increases the cost of labor, to the point where it's no longer worth it to an employer to hire a low-output employee. I think we'd all agree that increasing employment is a good goal, but an increased minimum wage actually hinders progress on that front. As the m…

Even if one simply manages to force employers to hand over more of their profit to workers this will simply force up rents/land prices and ultimately once again all gains pass to the rentier.

Bloomberg don't talk about land value tax. They are happy to talk about basic income because it's not real change.