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Yale censored a student's course catalog site. I made an unblockable replacement

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Re: Yale censored a student's course catalog site. I made an unblockable replacement

#141

Post by jahewson »

Bahamut wrote: post #91
jahewson wrote: post #85

> Yale also told Harry and Peter that the CourseTable website infringed upon the school’s copyrighted course data. It appears to be true; CourseTable hosted Yale’s course descriptions and student evaluations, or, if not the exact evaluations, they at least hosted derivations of them. It doesn't appear to be true at all! I'd argue very strongly that these are not creative works, and have zero commercial value, I don't…

Zero commercial value is a highly dubious claim. If the website happened to be refined to be so popular that students wouldn't want to go without it and they would be able to charge for the service, then commercial value would naturally be present.

By zero commercial value I mean that the current market price for this information is $0 because it is being given away for free. So it meets one of the key criteria of fair use.

However, I probably shouldn't mention fair use at all, because I don't believe that these course descriptions are eligible for copyright protection, therefore any reuse does not need to be justified as fair use.

Re: Yale censored a student's course catalog site. I made an unblockable replacement

#143

Post by greenyoda »

dahart wrote: post #137
ars wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it isn't. There is no such right. Copyright holders want such a right, but they don't have it. The entire concept of copyright in the first place is artificial - there is no moral copyright. So the only rights you have are the ones copyright gives you, and no more. Not to mention there is no database right in the US, so they don't even have a copyright on the course database in the first place! (They do on the des…

Actually, separate moral rights on copyrighted works do exist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_rights They likely do not apply to a University's course catalog and, but FYI moral rights are real. Also, under US copyright law, all 'works' & 'creations' are automatically protected, and the creator owns the copyright. This very likely can and does apply to databases the same way it applies to art or music. It would b…

"This very likely can and does apply to databases the same way it applies to art or music."

No, that's not correct:

"Uncreative collections of facts are outside of Congressional authority under the Copyright Clause (Article I, § 8, cl. 8) of the United States Constitution, therefore no database right exists in the United States. Originality is the sine qua non of copyright in the United States (see Feist Publications v. Rural Telephone Service). This has not stopped database owners lobbying for the introduction of such a right, but so far bills to introduce it in the U.S. have been prevented by the successful lobbying of research libraries, consumer groups and firms who benefit from the free use of factual information."[1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_right#United_States

Re: Yale censored a student's course catalog site. I made an unblockable replacement

#144

Post by jlees »

blibble wrote: post #30
ZoFreX wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm British and I did things like this constantly throughout school and university. Then again, people do keep asking if I am American...

here in the UK the Education Act 1986 makes it a duty of a University to safeguard its members freedom of speech (within the law), and makes it unlawful for a University to do what Yale did here. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1986/61/section/43

Although it's less applicable to folks not at the university who are talking about it.

Over 10 years ago, I ran a site which collected community anecdotes of the interview process at various universities, mostly focusing on Oxbridge colleges. The aim was to open up information that was often passed down between alumni of private schools where there was a tradition of attending those colleges -- leaving people like me, with no alumni to talk to, in the dark about what the interview process would be like.

I got several threatening letters from deans at the various colleges, and had a long process of trying to decide what to do. I didn't make any money off the site and couldn't afford legal help, so I ended up taking down a couple of the anecdotes when one college was particularly nasty, but for the most part ignored the threats. Ended up handing the site over to someone else as I was focusing on my university work and less involved in the admissions phase of things, and I'm happy to see it's still alive :)

Re: Yale censored a student's course catalog site. I made an unblockable replacement

#145

Post by mhb »

ps4fanboy wrote: post #133
mhb wrote: post #14

Yale’s copyright assertion muddles the argument that Yale’s actions violate Peter and Harry’s freedom of speech This misguided appeal to freedom of speech does not strengthen his argument.

Why do you think its misguided?

Because freedom of speech concerns the relationship of the government and its citizens. In this situation, more appropriate terminology could be academic freedom or censorship.

Re: Yale censored a student's course catalog site. I made an unblockable replacement

#146

Post by superflit »

RivieraKid wrote: post #93
superflit wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really wish some US americans value it more. Living for 3 years in US, loved the country and its infrastructure/legal system, country, people all of it. It is not perfect but still is one the best we have. Do you think NSA and military are ''bad'' you did not know what the other countries counterpart do (hint... worse and mean)

What county did you live in before?

Brazil....

With the whole populism thing..

Re: Yale censored a student's course catalog site. I made an unblockable replacement

#147

Post by aragot »

mhandley wrote: post #135
naaaaak wrote: post #124

The Dean’s response is such a typical academia response. It showcases the hypocrisy of these institutions and the fiefdom of a bureaucrat. Too many academic institutions claim they are all about learning and growing and leadership, until you do something they disapprove of in the slightest way, usually because it rocks their boat in the slightest way. We’ve seen how Stalin-esque they act when they don’t get their way…

If I understood the Dean's position correctly, it was that they didn't want students making course choices based on a single one-dimensional metric, but would rather the students saw the bigger picture before deciding. I can understand this viewpoint; some very good courses have a bi-modal distribution of ratings - students either love or hate them. The trick is to figure out which you'll likely be. You can't see thi…

Students ought to grow wary of unwise comments and ratings they find on the "People's Web". Good students will go to the right classes independently of the few bad comments. In fact, they probably make the difference much better than their dean, because they're used to consumer forums.

Rather than cutting the source, if the Dean doesn't trust student's maturity, the Dean should educate them about how to read several sources of information coming from the Internet.

Re: Yale censored a student's course catalog site. I made an unblockable replacement

#148

Post by dahart »

ars wrote: post #140
dahart wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, separate moral rights on copyrighted works do exist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_rights They likely do not apply to a University's course catalog and, but FYI moral rights are real. Also, under US copyright law, all 'works' & 'creations' are automatically protected, and the creator owns the copyright. This very likely can and does apply to databases the same way it applies to art or music. It would b…

Those moral rights are the opposite of what I mean. They are restrictions on the copyright owner. The moral rights I meant are if copyright exists from a moral point of view rater than a legal one - and it doesn't. > It would be a really bad idea to assume you have the right to copy someone's database just because copyright law doesn't mention databases specifically! ;) It does mention it specifically. It specificall…

> They are restrictions on the copyright owner.

What do you mean? Moral rights do not restrict the Moral Rights holder in any way, and they do restrict the ways that any other person is allowed to present, re-present, or modify the work.

Moral rights can only restrict copyright holders when the copyrights have been transferred from the creator of the work to another party, and in that case, Moral Rights restrict all people who didn't author/create the work equally, it has nothing to do with who holds the copyrights.

> It [US copyright law] specifically mentions that it [database copyrights] doesn't exist.

You have a good point! I was at least partially, if not completely incorrect. :)

But, it would still be a bad idea to assume you have the right to copy someone's database. It might not be a violation of copyright law, but there's a good chance it is a violation of some law. The sui generis database rights link happens to give a separate reason for why it would be a bad idea to copy someone's database. :)

I also just had to check... ;) The text of US copyright law does mention databases twice. http://www.copyright.gov/title17/circ92.pdf It specifically mentions, in definitions, that databases are not works of visual art, and that databases are not considered a "digital audio recording medium". It does not seem to specifically exclude databases categorically, but considering the language in the 'sui generis' article you linked, "Uncreative collections of facts are outside of Congressional authority". The keyword is 'creative', and if a database were shown to be the primary form of a "creative" work, copyright law may apply.

Re: Yale censored a student's course catalog site. I made an unblockable replacement

#150

Post by lvs »

shaufler wrote: post #38
ggchappell wrote: post #13

An interesting and apparently well executed effort. But, to be honest, your arguments reek of ignorance. > This is an unfortunate outcome, since Yale’s copyright assertion muddles the argument that Yale’s actions violate Peter and Harry’s freedom of speech. No it doesn't. Whatever Yale's responsibilities in the freedom-of-speech realm may be, they are entirely ethical in nature, as freedom of speech in the legal sens…

This is a semantic misunderstanding. When describing freedom of speech in the context of Yale, I meant it in a moral sense rather than a legal sense. Dean Mary Miller also used the term freedom of speech in her open letter to Yale, so I decided to use the same term. You're right though; saying 'academic freedom' would have been more clear.

I agree with this revision. It's important to frame your fight in terms of intellectual freedom within the academy, which is perhaps a conceptual framework your faculty can comprehend. Yale does not have any de facto obligation with regard to your free speech, legally or contractually speaking. Unfortunately, our society generally permits speech to be legal cause for termination/dismissal in private institutions (e.g. employment at a company), except in cases of discrimination and failures to adhere to equal opportunity laws.

The best advice I can give is to ensure you have open-minded faculty members at your back. If you have professors you feel you can talk to, I would try to have a casual conversation with them as soon as you can. Their advice and backing will be invaluable, if and when a formal situation arises.

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