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Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists

#141

Post by gort »

nathan_long wrote: post #6

>> They believe dolphins and whales are sufficiently intelligent to justify the same ethical considerations as humans. I don't have a problem with extending legal protection to dolphins, but I do think that "intelligence" as the criteria is morally problematic, at least if it's the sole criteria. For instance, could a person with Down's Syndrome be denied protection from murder? The Christian worldview holds that hum…

> For instance, could a person with Down's Syndrome be denied protection from murder?

Since nobody seems to have given a straight answer to this, I will. Someone with Down's Syndrome easily counts as an intelligent being, and is not even close to any borderline.

I suppose your question assumes that, since intelligence comes in degrees, any value based on it must also come in degrees. But instead, most people who see personhood this way believe in some sort of threshold above which everyone deserves equal protection.

Re: Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists

#142

Post by papsosouid »

DanBC wrote: post #128
brudgers wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this was the case, then we would be as tolerant toward the house cat who plays with the bird before killing it without eating it as we would be toward a human who acted likewise. The well being of an animal is no better after a slow cruel death than a quick painless one. When well being comes into play we tend to prohibit killing specifically and instrumental uses in general, as is the case with humans. The free r…

Slight tangent: > the house cat who plays with the bird before killing it without eating it Small birds have sharp beaks and claws. Mice have sharp teeth and claws. Cats have a hunting instinct. Wild cats survive by hunting. To hunt and eat prey a cat needs working jaws. The sharp teeth / beak / claws of prey only needs to puncture the skin of a cat's jaw once to cause infection which would leave that cat at serious…

>"Playing" with the prey is a good way to weaken the prey before the killing bite is inflicted.

No it isn't, it extends the amount of time the prey is alive and capable of causing harm, and the amount of contact between predator and prey. Domestic animals play with prey because they still have deeply ingrained hunting instinct, but have no actual need to hunt. This is why they will hunt a laser pointer just as intently as a mouse. They aren't after food, just reacting to instinct.

Re: Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists

#143

Post by papsosouid »

Osmium wrote: post #103
brudgers wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Western legal systems tend to only recognizes two types of entities, persons and property. Those entities to which personhood is extended have rights, all else does not. We punish those who are cruel to animals, not because we attribute personhood to them, but because of the impact animal cruelty has upon persons collectively (society at large). Criminalization of animal cruelty is no more based on the rights of anim…

> We punish those who are cruel to animals, not because we attribute personhood to them, but because of the impact animal cruelty has upon persons collectively (society at large). Are you sure this is correct? I'm fairly sure cruelty to animals is punished purely because of ethical considerations for the animal's well being.

If we did it purely out of consideration for the well being of animals, then would would apply laws consistently. We punish animal abuse when it happens to dogs, because people get upset about dogs being hurt. We ignore animal abuse when it happens to pigs, because we eat pigs and don't want to have to deal with the ethical dilemma posed by recognizing that they have feelings. The laws are most definitely designed around what is distressing to people in society, not around what is best for the well being of the animals.

Re: Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists

#145

Post by papsosouid »

crusso wrote: post #79
jlgreco wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fully functioning in society seems to be setting the bar too high; we don't consider that a prerequisite for rights in humans by any reasonable interpretation. Now, will dolphins ever communicate their desire to achieve greater legal consideration? Not unless we put some more effort into researching communication with dolphins (and even then, I strongly suspect not). Not really a problem though I think.

we don't consider that a prerequisite for rights in humans by any reasonable interpretation. You miss my point. It's not a requirement for any individual, but it IS a requirement for members of a species in general. Most humans are functioning members of society. The ones that aren't, whether it's temporary or permanent are protected implicitly and explicitly through social contract and the laws we've created. No dol…

No, it is not a requirement, that is what the discussion is about. If it were a requirement, we wouldn't be trying to decide if it should be a requirement or not. Using a sample size of one to prove a point is absurd.

Re: Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists

#146

Post by Osmium »

papsosouid wrote: post #143
Osmium wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We punish those who are cruel to animals, not because we attribute personhood to them, but because of the impact animal cruelty has upon persons collectively (society at large). Are you sure this is correct? I'm fairly sure cruelty to animals is punished purely because of ethical considerations for the animal's well being.

If we did it purely out of consideration for the well being of animals, then would would apply laws consistently. We punish animal abuse when it happens to dogs, because people get upset about dogs being hurt. We ignore animal abuse when it happens to pigs, because we eat pigs and don't want to have to deal with the ethical dilemma posed by recognizing that they have feelings. The laws are most definitely designed ar…

Agreed that laws should be consistent but this isn't just a problem with animal cruelty laws.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to be humane to animals, even ones that are ultimately killed for their meat (such as pigs). It's possible for an animal to live a perfectly content life and then be killed quickly and with as little pain as possible. And that's what a lot of people are campaigning for.

Reducing animal cruelty is not at odds with breeding livestock for food. We can have both. And to not support one because you want the other is disingenuous.

Re: Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists

#147

Post by papsosouid »

Alex3917 wrote: post #40
njl wrote: post #27

I'm very comfortable with this in the general case; I feel guilty eating bacon because pigs seem pretty smart. Still, rights always come paired up with responsibilities. Do we then try dolphins for rape or murder? Rather than saying certain categories of animals should have the same rights as humans, maybe we'd be better off saying certain categories of animals deserve a higher level of ethical and legal consideratio…

"Maybe we'd be better off saying certain categories of animals deserve a higher level of ethical and legal consideration." Ethicists use the term animal welfare (as opposed to animal rights) for this reason. No one at least at this point thinks that animals should be allowed to vote, which is what equal rights for animals would imply.

Nobody said anything about equal rights, just rights. That's why they want to encourage discussion, to figure out what rights they would be given.

Re: Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists

#148

Post by papsosouid »

w1ntermute wrote: post #25
jawns wrote: post #15

I'd be a lot more sympathetic to the cause of treating dolphins as if they had human rights if we first agreed to treat all humans as if they had human rights.

Yep, slavery exists to this day in many parts of Africa and India. That should be our first concern.

But first we need to find out exactly which slaves have it the worst, and free all of them. We can't go around doing good things for anyone other than the absolute worst off people. Luckily this means we can spend all our time debating who has it worst instead of doing anything to help anyone.

Re: Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists

#150

Post by papsosouid »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #130

I'd like to reference an argument presented here before when this same issue came up. Japanese harvest ships slaughter thousands of dolphins each year, in a certain bay. Some escape. Next year, more olphins return to the bay and are caught, seemingly by surprise? SO either, the escaped dolphins did not communicate the danger, were unable to communicate, or just didn't care what happened to other dolphins. In any of t…

You are making a whole lot of unfounded assumptions. Who says those that escape knew the fate of those that didn't? Who says they have a choice as to where to go? Perhaps they need to be in that area at that time because that is where their food is at that time. The options you present are not even remotely close to exhaustive, yet you hide behind their totality for your excuse to avoid considering the issue at all.
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