Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists • Hacker News Board

Re: Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists

#21

Post by TomGullen » Mon, Nov 05, 2012, 2:52 PM UTC

> It is based on years of research that has shown dolphins and whales have large, complex brains and a human-like level of self-awareness

How did they conclude dolphins and whales are self-aware comparatively to humans? That seems like quite a large claim to make and the argument significantly hinges on this.

I wasn't aware of any scientific method to prove self awareness.

Re: Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists

#22

Post by arrrg » Mon, Nov 05, 2012, 2:53 PM UTC

dfgonzalez wrote: post #4

Rights come with Obligations, so as long as they pay their taxes too, I'm OK with this

No they don't. Obviously not. Human rights are inalienable (though sometimes rights clash and then you need a mechanism to decide which one wins).

Re: Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists

#23

Post by johnnyg » Mon, Nov 05, 2012, 2:53 PM UTC

nathan_long wrote: post #18

johnnyg wrote: post #9

Sorry, but I'm going to need a Dolphin declaration of independence, armed revolution and ability to self sustain through value creation first.

By "armed revolution" you're implying that someone has rights only if they are able to defend them. While that seems pragmatic, it actually destroys the definition of "rights". Saying "X has a right to live" means "you shouldn't kill X." That's a completely different statement from "you will not be able to kill X." Morality is concerned with what you are obligated to do or not do, apart from your preferences or abili…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrasymachus

This has been hashed out before. Doesn't go well for "rights" in the sense you mean.

Re: Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists

#24

Post by michaelfeathers » Mon, Nov 05, 2012, 2:54 PM UTC

spiritplumber wrote: post #2

I'm okay with this.

I think I'm okay with it, but it is a slippery slope. It reminds me of the abortion wars. People want to find a hard line for "when life starts" in a continuum. There's no such thing. I think the same thing could be said of all of the qualities that lead to our notion of personhood.

Re: Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists

#25

Post by w1ntermute » Mon, Nov 05, 2012, 2:55 PM UTC

jawns wrote: post #15

I'd be a lot more sympathetic to the cause of treating dolphins as if they had human rights if we first agreed to treat all humans as if they had human rights.

Yep, slavery exists to this day in many parts of Africa and India. That should be our first concern.

Re: Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists

#26

Post by dharmach » Mon, Nov 05, 2012, 2:55 PM UTC

nathan_long wrote: post #6

>> They believe dolphins and whales are sufficiently intelligent to justify the same ethical considerations as humans. I don't have a problem with extending legal protection to dolphins, but I do think that "intelligence" as the criteria is morally problematic, at least if it's the sole criteria. For instance, could a person with Down's Syndrome be denied protection from murder? The Christian worldview holds that hum…

Your opinion is correct but don't drag Christianity here. Christianity did enough violence on the name of non-violent Jesus. Better you talk of universal human values.

Re: Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists

#27

Post by njl » Mon, Nov 05, 2012, 2:56 PM UTC

I'm very comfortable with this in the general case; I feel guilty eating bacon because pigs seem pretty smart. Still, rights always come paired up with responsibilities. Do we then try dolphins for rape or murder?

Rather than saying certain categories of animals should have the same rights as humans, maybe we'd be better off saying certain categories of animals deserve a higher level of ethical and legal consideration.

Re: Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists

#28

Post by rmc » Mon, Nov 05, 2012, 2:57 PM UTC

nathan_long wrote: post #6

>> They believe dolphins and whales are sufficiently intelligent to justify the same ethical considerations as humans. I don't have a problem with extending legal protection to dolphins, but I do think that "intelligence" as the criteria is morally problematic, at least if it's the sole criteria. For instance, could a person with Down's Syndrome be denied protection from murder? The Christian worldview holds that hum…

I think the point with intelligence is to show that dolphins, the species, are closer to humans, than (say) worms.

Re: Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists

#29

Post by jlgreco » Mon, Nov 05, 2012, 2:57 PM UTC

nathan_long wrote: post #6

>> They believe dolphins and whales are sufficiently intelligent to justify the same ethical considerations as humans. I don't have a problem with extending legal protection to dolphins, but I do think that "intelligence" as the criteria is morally problematic, at least if it's the sole criteria. For instance, could a person with Down's Syndrome be denied protection from murder? The Christian worldview holds that hum…

In more extreme cases where emotional identification breaks down, I think it is clear that the lack of brain functioning is identified with a loss of humanity, even if other bodily facilities are still more or less operational.

Now, are dolphins at the same level as vegetable humans? Clearly not. Is the bar to which we hold them higher than that, since we lack the same emotional connections? I suspect, in reality, yes.

Re: Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists

#30

Post by Zaephyr » Mon, Nov 05, 2012, 2:58 PM UTC

johnnyg wrote: post #16

swombat wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it could easily be argued that the dolphins' way of life is more sustainable than ours... Probably not the best line of argument!

You think humans chasing small fish around in the surf is a superior way to live? Seriously? There is nothing stopping you...just keep walking west. :)

So long, and thanks for all the fish!