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Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

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Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#141

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

treve wrote: post #37
MarkusWandel wrote: post #21

I get it about Wayland. Most of X is legacy cruft and even isolating that into XWayland or whatever it's called for backwards compatibility is better than having it front and center. But yes, there are use cases it doesn't cover. Example. My elderly mom uses Linux laptops that I've rigged to (1) always have an SSH connection open to my server machine, with reverse tunnels, and (2) run x0vncserver. Modern security peo…

Does Waypipe solve this problem?

Unlikely; AFAIK waypipe solves "run this program on a remote machine but display it locally" (roughly like X forwarding), not "show me the remote display" (roughly like x11vnc) which is better covered by wayvnc or assorted per-DE solutions.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#142

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

bsder wrote: post #106
palata wrote: post #52

I don't get the Xorg vs Wayland fight. Feels like it mostly coming from people who don't contribute to either of them. If you like Xorg, use Xorg. If you like Wayland, use Wayland. If you're not happy about an issue, contribute to it.

> If you like Xorg, use Xorg. If you like Wayland, use Wayland. If you're not happy about an issue, contribute to it. The problem is that RedHat nee IBM are attempting to force everybody onto Wayland by dropping X11 support. They already tried once and the outcry was so huge that they had to back off saying they would try again next version. This is kind of a rock and a hard place. The Wayland developers don't want t…

> Wayland is fundamentally broken in many ways down at the architectural level, but the sunk cost fallacy keeps them working on it.

> Everybody forgets that Wayland predates Vulkan. A "real" replacement for X11/Wayland probably needs to restart from "Vulkan support is the base layer" and build up from there.

I wonder if you could point me in the right direction to learn more about this?

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#143

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

exiguus wrote: post #98

I understand that change can be challenging, but actively seeking reasons to avoid change is another matter entirely. The criticism of Wayland in this article seems unfounded. Transitioning to new tools can resolve many issues. You have a choice: acknowledge that Wayland is faster, more user-friendly, and more secure, or remain tied to technologies from the 1990s. Since Ubuntu has adopted Wayland exclusively for its…

> Since Ubuntu has adopted Wayland exclusively for its new LTS release, I've noticed over the past few days that much of the criticism comes from Windows users who rely on RDP to configure Red Hat or CentOS with a GUI, or something similar. These users have become accustomed to the lack of security in Xorg to perform their tasks. Now, they must reconsider how they maintain their Linux machines.

I don't follow? If folks are using RDP, they don't need Xorg's less-secure remote access options, they can just use RDP? And Wayland has VNC and RDP servers, including GNOME having built-in RDP, so if people are using that then it shouldn't matter whether GNOME happens to have replaced X with Wayland.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#144

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

anglesideangle wrote: post #28

As someone who actively uses a wayland compositor and has done so since switching to linux ~4 years ago, I often feel like I live in a different world from the authors of articles discussing its usability. Just to discuss a few points made about wayland's supposed inferiority: > Wayland cannot do (or do well) tons of things: > VNC server > remote desktop I don't regularly use either of these so I cannot attest to whe…

> Once again, I'm running absolute desktop positioning right now

How?

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#145

Post by jauntywundrkind »

throwaway63097 wrote: post #120
jauntywundrkind wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AMD has great open source drivers that work wonderfully everywhere. Even their old hardware keeps getting amazing upgrades & enhancements, a decade+ latter! Word on the street is Nvidia is doing a much much better job, for a year or so now. But, like, you are using a GPU that sway used to make you type "--i-wont-buy-an-nvidia-gpu-again" and now makes you type --unsupported-gpu to use. It's not Wayland's fault if your…

> Wayland does way way way less special magic & is way more straightforward with how it handles the display subsystem than X, which half ignores the kernel & has its own absurd driver subsystems and mountains of jank overlapping extensions to do what kernels and GPUs just do these days. Users don't care about your beautiful code and architecture if your product doesn't even work. Making excuses doesn't help anyone -…

Ignorance is a beautiful shield Against rationality & understanding, little green grasshopper (8 hour old account).

The world has no ability to make Nvidia's drivers good. If Nvidia can't build drivers that work, there's nothing we can do about it. Defending a situation where hackers have no ability to improve or work a situation is unhackerly, dumb. Consumers are free to remain ignorant, but this situation of where we go and what we do has consequences & meaning to the hacker, and the facts and technics ought matter.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#146

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

panzi wrote: post #134
stop50 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fake inputs are done with uinput(kernel interface). Access to the screen is usually over pipewire.

Doesn't writing to /dev/uinput require you to be root? That's way worse security wise than faking X11 inputs. Also you can't direct the inputs to a specific window. That is bound to create problems where events go to the wrong process. Also PipeWire is an audio interface. A replacement to PulseAudio. That has nothing to do with accessing screens.

> Also PipeWire is an audio interface. A replacement to PulseAudio. That has nothing to do with accessing screens.

No, it's a general audio/video system, including video from cameras and virtual video streams from screen capture; see https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/PipeWire#WebRTC_screen_shar... for some discussion.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#147

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

em-bee wrote: post #112
eadmund wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn’t really work. If there’s no longer a browser which supports X11, then I have to choose between browsing the web and having a usable desktop. The problem is that the Wayland folks are trying to replace X11 rather than provide an easy upgrade path. They simply don’t care about anyone who uses a computer in any way outside of the ways they can be bothered to support. ‘It’s better!’ they cry, despite users te…

they are providing an upgrade path: XWayland. i have yet to come across an X11 application that does not run despite using wayland.

> i have yet to come across an X11 application that does not run despite using wayland.

That is both the good thing and the bad thing. Application software can seamlessly work on Wayland via XWayland. Anything that needs to touch things outside its own window - notably, a11y and automation tools (which in fairness are functionally the same thing) don't have it so easy.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#148

Post by em-bee »

eadmund wrote: post #130
em-bee wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they are providing an upgrade path: XWayland. i have yet to come across an X11 application that does not run despite using wayland.

Is it possible to run an X11 window manager in XWayland and have it manage Wayland windows and intercept keystrokes for all windows? If not then it’s not really an upgrade path. I do get it — no-one owes me anything. They don’t even, really, owe me the kindness of not breaking the software I use. In principle I could fork and maintain everything I want myself, or working with others. But …

that's not fair. window managers are not regular apps. wayland has a different architecture that changes how windows are managed. this also has to affect things like taking screenhots, screen sharing, recording, locking, screensavers, etc.

intercepting/sending keystrokes in particular had to be redesigned to make to make it more secure. without that there would not have been a point to wayland at all.

your actual apps that just display stuff on the screen and take your input all still work though.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#149

Post by timewizard »

devmor wrote: post #94
timewizard wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> short-lived movements of social energy It's hard to imagine an energy that's apparently existed for 12 years and still going being described as "short-lived." Perhaps it's really just unfamiliar and that's why it seems so concerning?

I don’t recall anyone ranting about “DEI” 12 years ago. I do recall the same rants about 3 or 4 other terms that ultimately resolve to “people that aren’t me are allowed to do things”, though.

> I don’t recall anyone ranting about “DEI” 12 years ago.

Do you typically read the types of publications where that was likely to occur?

> I do recall the same rants about 3 or 4 other terms that ultimately resolve to “people that aren’t me are allowed to do things”, though.

Or perhaps you've just read second hand accounts of the phenomenon without actually confronting it directly? Which is what I presume given that you've come to such a self serving conclusion about it.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#150

Post by jubalfh »

throwaway63097 wrote: post #66
JoshTriplett wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a new startup comes up, and someone points out "they've taken funding from Philip Morris / Altria", that is completely on topic, and will affect how some people evaluate the company. This is comparable.

Calling someone a "reactionary nutjob" isn't really informative. You can put someome's biases on display without insults, just as other commenters have done.

indeed. the objective description is “a genuine german neonazi”.
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