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Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

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Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#131

Post by senectus1 »

jcranmer wrote: post #121
soraminazuki wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The main dev, apart from being a reactionary nutjob This is honestly an understatement. Posting antivax conspiracy theories on LKML? Reactionary. Writing anti-DEI rants in his REAMDE and COC files? Reactionary. But this long-winded rant [1] defending WW2 Germany? "Reactionary" doesn't even begin to describe it. Whatever one's opinion on Wayland, his conduct [2] should be a huge red flag to anyone using his software…

> But this long-winded rant [1] defending WW2 Germany? "Reactionary" doesn't even begin to describe it. Holy. Fucking. Crap. I never thought that I would find someone in the modern day attempt to defend that Germany didn't start WW2, but here we are. I had a low opinion of him before, but he found a new low to plumb.

Social media, AI etc has created a post reality world.

We DON'T all live in the same reality, the echo chambers and false narratives being fed to us and corralling us is completely messing with our heads.

back in the 60's and 70's we were worried that the CIA was micro dosing the population... what we've learned is that isn't even needed. just feed us attractive lies and we'll line up for brainworms via the internet and TV day and night.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#132

Post by anon-3988 »

MarkusWandel wrote: post #21

I get it about Wayland. Most of X is legacy cruft and even isolating that into XWayland or whatever it's called for backwards compatibility is better than having it front and center. But yes, there are use cases it doesn't cover. Example. My elderly mom uses Linux laptops that I've rigged to (1) always have an SSH connection open to my server machine, with reverse tunnels, and (2) run x0vncserver. Modern security peo…

If you already don't care about security, whats stopping you from running 10 year old software and never updating it? Its not like Wayland is going to ruin your older software and hardware.

I don't get why its such a big deal that software that:

1. no one wants to develop 2. is completely free 3. no longer being developed

is such a problem, its free. if its so important to you, why not contribute yourself? Should these people be forced to contribute to projects that they want to be free of against their will?

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#133

Post by charcircuit »

const_cast wrote: post #129
charcircuit wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Nvidia has been antagonistic to the Linux desktop for forever. Have they? Or have others refused to work with them, refused to make compromises, and refused to offer stable interfaces for them to target. Don't pretend like none of this "antagonism" wasn't self inflicted.

1. The kernel never provides stable interfaces in kernel space. That's just how it is. 2. Nobody can work with them anyway because their drivers are closed sourced. They decided they should be the only ones developing them, so be it. If they upstreamed them they would get thousands of contributor's worth of help.

1. It doesn't have to be that way. Windows provides a stable interface for drivers for example.

2. Directly contributing code is not the only way to work with someone.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#134

Post by panzi »

stop50 wrote: post #77
panzi wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do accessibility tools work with that? They need to examine and control other running processes.

Fake inputs are done with uinput(kernel interface). Access to the screen is usually over pipewire.

Doesn't writing to /dev/uinput require you to be root? That's way worse security wise than faking X11 inputs. Also you can't direct the inputs to a specific window. That is bound to create problems where events go to the wrong process.

Also PipeWire is an audio interface. A replacement to PulseAudio. That has nothing to do with accessing screens.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#135

Post by anon-3988 »

eadmund wrote: post #107
palata wrote: post #52

I don't get the Xorg vs Wayland fight. Feels like it mostly coming from people who don't contribute to either of them. If you like Xorg, use Xorg. If you like Wayland, use Wayland. If you're not happy about an issue, contribute to it.

That doesn’t really work. If there’s no longer a browser which supports X11, then I have to choose between browsing the web and having a usable desktop. The problem is that the Wayland folks are trying to replace X11 rather than provide an easy upgrade path. They simply don’t care about anyone who uses a computer in any way outside of the ways they can be bothered to support. ‘It’s better!’ they cry, despite users te…

> That doesn’t really work. If there’s no longer a browser which supports X11, then I have to choose between browsing the web and having a usable desktop.

You can keep using the older software? No one is forcing you to upgrade? Should these people be forced to work on projects they don't like?

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#136

Post by panzi »

worik wrote: post #58
bigstrat2003 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it isn't. I have contributed to, and used, many open source projects without it ever being political. All I did was share work I created because it might help someone out, or use a tool I found useful. Some people choose to make open source political and that's their right, but it isn't inherently political. That is a choice one makes.

> All I did was share work You may not have political opinions but you took political action....

Yeah, it baffles me how people don't realize that.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#137

Post by bsder »

em-bee wrote: post #113
bsder wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you like Xorg, use Xorg. If you like Wayland, use Wayland. If you're not happy about an issue, contribute to it. The problem is that RedHat nee IBM are attempting to force everybody onto Wayland by dropping X11 support. They already tried once and the outcry was so huge that they had to back off saying they would try again next version. This is kind of a rock and a hard place. The Wayland developers don't want t…

Wayland predates Vulkan and how is that waylands fault? what if vulkan gets replaced? should a new replacement be written from scratch every time that happens?

> and how is that waylands fault?

It is not. However, Wayland had to make certain decisions up front that later turned out to be significantly suboptimal in the context of a graphics world that converged to DX12/Vulkan/Metal and all look roughly the same from an abstraction level.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#138

Post by bsder »

em-bee wrote: post #112
eadmund wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn’t really work. If there’s no longer a browser which supports X11, then I have to choose between browsing the web and having a usable desktop. The problem is that the Wayland folks are trying to replace X11 rather than provide an easy upgrade path. They simply don’t care about anyone who uses a computer in any way outside of the ways they can be bothered to support. ‘It’s better!’ they cry, despite users te…

they are providing an upgrade path: XWayland. i have yet to come across an X11 application that does not run despite using wayland.

See: https://www.kicad.org/blog/2025/06/KiCad-and-Wayland-Support...

It has been almost 20 years and Wayland JUST merged pointer warp support (literally like last week)--which is absolutely fundamental to both CAD and menu systems.

So, no, Wayland does not support some very important use cases.

If you've had 20 years and can't be better than what you claim you are replacing, what does that say about you as a programmer or organization?

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#139

Post by Tadpole9181 »

em-bee wrote: post #64
throwaway63097 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

You'd expect that the changes would've been reverted sooner if that was all there was to it, no? How come they're suddenly a problem? that was my first thought too. if these commits were a problem they should not have been accepted in the first place. was there no review process in place? and if there was no review, isn't that a sign that the project is dead? and if the project is dead what's with the sudden activity…

AFAICT they were reviewed, but too leniently in light of his "improve the codebase" rhetoric. His recent drama and stirring has brought eyes from more senior members of the team, which realized his work was shotty and several changes being made were outright wrong or caused new bugs.

More info here: https://www.phoronix.com/news/X.Org-Server-Lots-Of-Reverts

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#140

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

MarkusWandel wrote: post #21

I get it about Wayland. Most of X is legacy cruft and even isolating that into XWayland or whatever it's called for backwards compatibility is better than having it front and center. But yes, there are use cases it doesn't cover. Example. My elderly mom uses Linux laptops that I've rigged to (1) always have an SSH connection open to my server machine, with reverse tunnels, and (2) run x0vncserver. Modern security peo…

> But yes, there are use cases it doesn't cover. Example. My elderly mom uses Linux laptops that I've rigged to (1) always have an SSH connection open to my server machine, with reverse tunnels, and (2) run x0vncserver.

> Modern security people would cringe, but this is the real world. I can open her desktop any time, from 700km away, and fix serious disasters like: She accidentally double-clicked an email and it opened up in a tab that obscures her message list (Thunderbird). This has worked very well to keep her online and happily emailing.

I'm not sure why anyone would mind the security of that setup? Provided that your server isn't compromised, that arrangement should provide both confidentiality and integrity, and if SSH is compromised then we all have bigger problems.

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