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Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

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Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#121

Post by jcranmer »

soraminazuki wrote: post #117
Lariscus wrote: post #36

[flagged]

> The main dev, apart from being a reactionary nutjob This is honestly an understatement. Posting antivax conspiracy theories on LKML? Reactionary. Writing anti-DEI rants in his REAMDE and COC files? Reactionary. But this long-winded rant [1] defending WW2 Germany? "Reactionary" doesn't even begin to describe it. Whatever one's opinion on Wayland, his conduct [2] should be a huge red flag to anyone using his software…

> But this long-winded rant [1] defending WW2 Germany? "Reactionary" doesn't even begin to describe it.

Holy. Fucking. Crap.

I never thought that I would find someone in the modern day attempt to defend that Germany didn't start WW2, but here we are.

I had a low opinion of him before, but he found a new low to plumb.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#122

Post by charcircuit »

const_cast wrote: post #114
63 wrote: post #55

I'll throw my hat in the anti-Wayland ring. I have a 5-year-old graphics card from the most popular graphics card company in the world. And yet, in 2025, I cannot run Sway/Wayland on my Nvidia 3070 for more than 20 minutes without a crash. i3/Xorg works fine. Wayland just straight doesn't work and the push to move everyone to it looks ridiculous from my perspective.

I know this conversation keeps coming up again and again, but this is firmly nvidia's issue. Nvidia has been antagonistic to the Linux desktop for forever. Before Wayland, it was not sunshine and rainbows. For a long time, a lot of shit just did not work and there was no way to make it work. Nvidia did not care. It took Linux Trovalds shitting on Nvidia to make them care a little. It took YEARS for Nvidia on the Linu…

>Nvidia has been antagonistic to the Linux desktop for forever.

Have they? Or have others refused to work with them, refused to make compromises, and refused to offer stable interfaces for them to target. Don't pretend like none of this "antagonism" wasn't self inflicted.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#123

Post by jcranmer »

throwaway63097 wrote: post #119
soraminazuki wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The main dev, apart from being a reactionary nutjob This is honestly an understatement. Posting antivax conspiracy theories on LKML? Reactionary. Writing anti-DEI rants in his REAMDE and COC files? Reactionary. But this long-winded rant [1] defending WW2 Germany? "Reactionary" doesn't even begin to describe it. Whatever one's opinion on Wayland, his conduct [2] should be a huge red flag to anyone using his software…

Do you hold the same views that you used to hold six years ago?

For the most part, yes.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#124

Post by soraminazuki »

throwaway63097 wrote: post #119
soraminazuki wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The main dev, apart from being a reactionary nutjob This is honestly an understatement. Posting antivax conspiracy theories on LKML? Reactionary. Writing anti-DEI rants in his REAMDE and COC files? Reactionary. But this long-winded rant [1] defending WW2 Germany? "Reactionary" doesn't even begin to describe it. Whatever one's opinion on Wayland, his conduct [2] should be a huge red flag to anyone using his software…

Do you hold the same views that you used to hold six years ago?

Did he ever renounce his own views? Because publicly spouting Nazi propaganda isn't the kind of thing he can pretend never happened by just waiting a few years. I'm all for leniency, but he needs to show that he's changed. Especially when he has said things like:

- WW2 Germany was "peaceful" and that the war was "forced" upon them

- Churchill and Roosevelt "should have been the first to be prosecuted in the Nuremberg trials"

- The German AfD party is "(mis)labeled" by the mainstream media as Nazis

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#125

Post by arp242 »

throwaway63097 wrote: post #119
soraminazuki wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The main dev, apart from being a reactionary nutjob This is honestly an understatement. Posting antivax conspiracy theories on LKML? Reactionary. Writing anti-DEI rants in his REAMDE and COC files? Reactionary. But this long-winded rant [1] defending WW2 Germany? "Reactionary" doesn't even begin to describe it. Whatever one's opinion on Wayland, his conduct [2] should be a huge red flag to anyone using his software…

Do you hold the same views that you used to hold six years ago?

On the topic that Nazis are bad and that the Holocaust happened? Yes.

For all his whinging and whining about "muh dresden bombings", he conveniently seems to "forget" that all that stopped one of the worst genocides in history, including planned genocides (such as those of the Slavic people). And then when he does bring up the Holocaust later it's in a way that seems an awful lot like Holocaust denial.

I'm a simple guy. Goose-steps like a Nazi and salutes like a Nazi? Probably a Nazi.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#126

Post by jcranmer »

soraminazuki wrote: post #124
throwaway63097 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you hold the same views that you used to hold six years ago?

Did he ever renounce his own views? Because publicly spouting Nazi propaganda isn't the kind of thing he can pretend never happened by just waiting a few years. I'm all for leniency, but he needs to show that he's changed. Especially when he has said things like: - WW2 Germany was "peaceful" and that the war was "forced" upon them - Churchill and Roosevelt "should have been the first to be prosecuted in the Nuremberg…

I'll go a step further and point out that someone who is not only willing to parrot these views but has a fairly detailed rationale for why they believe them are so devoted to those views that I'd find a disavowal of them somewhat suspicious.

Fortunately, it's also pretty clear from other contextual clues that he sees no reason to disavow those beliefs.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#127

Post by neurostimulant »

63 wrote: post #55

I'll throw my hat in the anti-Wayland ring. I have a 5-year-old graphics card from the most popular graphics card company in the world. And yet, in 2025, I cannot run Sway/Wayland on my Nvidia 3070 for more than 20 minutes without a crash. i3/Xorg works fine. Wayland just straight doesn't work and the push to move everyone to it looks ridiculous from my perspective.

Wayland and Nvidia seems to work better on bleeding edge distro that ships bleeding edge DE and latest stable kernel.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#128

Post by arp242 »

MrArthegor wrote: post #81
bryanlarsen wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Projects of this size cannot be a one man show. So the ability of collaborators to cooperate matters greatly.

Having a controversial reputation in leader is not always a bad thing, look at Theo De Raadt or Linus Totvald. It’s seem to have already attracted contributors, but let’s see how all of this goes in the next’s months.

There are different kinds of "controversial" and degrees of things. While you're correct that both Torvalds and de Raadt have a well-earned reputation for not always being the easiest person to get along with, most of their controversial behaviour centres around flaming people over technical matters, or sometimes organisational matters directly related to the project. Basically: it's not what they're saying, it's how they're saying it.

I've never seen either Torvalds or de Raadt go off on these mega-weird political rants completely unprompted, or inject that sort of thing in the project's README. Never mind going off on rants that smell an awful lot like Nazi apologetics. This is not just a matter of "how they're saying it", there are some real issues with what they're saying as well.

But you know, it's open source. He doesn't need mine or anyone else's permission. More power to him.

But it's really not the same as Torvalds or de Raadt. And it's also not so strange people want to steer clear of it.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#129

Post by const_cast »

charcircuit wrote: post #122
const_cast wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know this conversation keeps coming up again and again, but this is firmly nvidia's issue. Nvidia has been antagonistic to the Linux desktop for forever. Before Wayland, it was not sunshine and rainbows. For a long time, a lot of shit just did not work and there was no way to make it work. Nvidia did not care. It took Linux Trovalds shitting on Nvidia to make them care a little. It took YEARS for Nvidia on the Linu…

>Nvidia has been antagonistic to the Linux desktop for forever. Have they? Or have others refused to work with them, refused to make compromises, and refused to offer stable interfaces for them to target. Don't pretend like none of this "antagonism" wasn't self inflicted.

1. The kernel never provides stable interfaces in kernel space. That's just how it is.

2. Nobody can work with them anyway because their drivers are closed sourced. They decided they should be the only ones developing them, so be it. If they upstreamed them they would get thousands of contributor's worth of help.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#130

Post by eadmund »

em-bee wrote: post #112
eadmund wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn’t really work. If there’s no longer a browser which supports X11, then I have to choose between browsing the web and having a usable desktop. The problem is that the Wayland folks are trying to replace X11 rather than provide an easy upgrade path. They simply don’t care about anyone who uses a computer in any way outside of the ways they can be bothered to support. ‘It’s better!’ they cry, despite users te…

they are providing an upgrade path: XWayland. i have yet to come across an X11 application that does not run despite using wayland.

Is it possible to run an X11 window manager in XWayland and have it manage Wayland windows and intercept keystrokes for all windows?

If not then it’s not really an upgrade path.

I do get it — no-one owes me anything. They don’t even, really, owe me the kindness of not breaking the software I use. In principle I could fork and maintain everything I want myself, or working with others. But …

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