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Pilot flying Helene rescue missions in NC threatened with arrest

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Re: Pilot flying Helene rescue missions in NC threatened with arrest

#141

Post by nrjames »

kortilla wrote: post #63
nrjames wrote: post #41

I've spent a significant amount of time working in disaster response. In the US (and probably elsewhere), you have "Disaster Cowboys." These are people who are untrained but fancy they know better how to do things than people who have spent their lives training for these types of scenarios. Picture 1000 people showing up with their pickups and John boats following Hurricane Katrina. Or, imagine the Coast Guard conduc…

This is a bunch of gatekeeping with “yeah, they save lives, but might cause harm”. Has anyone actually done analysis to determine if a bunch of amateurs is actually a net negative? Search and rescue people get upset by these people not following authority, but that’s a standard response anytime amateurs show up to something. It’s the same dilemma of allowing regular people to serve food to large groups. Sure, discour…

Sure, talk to the American Red Cross Society, which is the only nonprofit with a Congressional mandate to provide services during disasters. During Katrina, their Volunteer to Paid Employee ratio was about 64 to 1. It literally is an organization that exists to train volunteers for providing appropriate response during disasters. Is it bureaucratic and bloated? Sure, but its entire job is to get trained people in during these situations. Likewise, the Southern Baptist Convention provides most of the mobile kitchen that the ARCS uses (though they have no mandate to do so).

There are official channels for getting volunteers trained up for these situations. The untrained folks have a tendency to make things worse, which is why the authorities usually don't want them there.

Re: Pilot flying Helene rescue missions in NC threatened with arrest

#142

Post by nrjames »

exabrial wrote: post #50
nrjames wrote: post #41

I've spent a significant amount of time working in disaster response. In the US (and probably elsewhere), you have "Disaster Cowboys." These are people who are untrained but fancy they know better how to do things than people who have spent their lives training for these types of scenarios. Picture 1000 people showing up with their pickups and John boats following Hurricane Katrina. Or, imagine the Coast Guard conduc…

So the main problem is what? Control? 1000 people show up and your leadership skills or ego can handle it? Sure be embarrassing if they outdid the government, that’s for sure. How about this: get out of their way. Or even better: clear their paths. Or conduct your own operations and don’t worry about it.

How are you going to feel when a random person you've never seen shows up and pushes deploy on your production code on a Friday afternoon? What is it that makes you think that this is a field that doesn't require training. Ever heard of the Sphere Standards[0]? Why don't you go flip through their handbook[1]? These standards exist because when the US and the USSR stopped their proxy war of providing humanitarian assistance and let everybody and their untrained NGO flood into Somalia 30 years ago, it was an absolute nightmare that caused total chaos of the people in need. It turns out the world has tried the "let everybody and their people come in and help" approach and it's terrible.

[0] https://spherestandards.org [1] https://spherestandards.org/handbook/editions/

Re: Pilot flying Helene rescue missions in NC threatened with arrest

#143

Post by infamia »

oefrha wrote: post #60
sethammons wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a mountain area with regular residents that is over five hours of driving from the ocean. They expected a couple inches of rain. They didn't expect 20 inches and a dam to break. Nobody predicted this kind of damage. These were not idiots who ignored warnings. These are people who were hit with an unprecedented natural disaster and if you had called them idiots outloud around here you may end up with a broken…

Five hours of driving from the ocean is nothing. I have lived on opposite sides of the world and prepared for both hurricanes and typhoons plenty of times while being further from shore. I have prepared for two recently. These aren’t natural disasters without warning (unlike say earthquakes), and while you can hardly mitigate the damage, there’s no excuse being stranded unless you simply live alone. Maybe people in y…

> if they all think moving away from a mountain AirBnB into civilization in preparation for a hurricane is outlandish.

I would love to hear why you think a big portion of the people impacted are AirBnB tourists, or are you just going by what you see in the news?

Re: Pilot flying Helene rescue missions in NC threatened with arrest

#144

Post by jlbooker »

Here's a good follow-up video from the same news org: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8ICG0iaHqw

Spoiler: They ended up dragging the husband through the (raging, debris filled) river after he hiked himself down the mountain, instead of letting the helicopter pick him up. Not 24-hrs later, they were asking for private helicopter pilots to go do exactly the same sort of thing. According to the video above, the pilot had checked in with incident command at the Hickory regional airport, and they were only selling fuel to pilots who joined the rescue mission with them. The town manager in this video is stretching to defend the fire chief.

Re: Pilot flying Helene rescue missions in NC threatened with arrest

#145

Post by infamia »

blank429384jf wrote: post #96
sethammons wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a mountain area with regular residents that is over five hours of driving from the ocean. They expected a couple inches of rain. They didn't expect 20 inches and a dam to break. Nobody predicted this kind of damage. These were not idiots who ignored warnings. These are people who were hit with an unprecedented natural disaster and if you had called them idiots outloud around here you may end up with a broken…

A couple inches? NOAA was forcasting record flooding days before the storm. Local news in the Triangle were showing pictures from the 1916 Asheville flood and saying this storm was going to be worse. There were mandatory evacuation orders all over. The severity of the situation leading up to the storm wasn't lost on me. We need to understand how people didn't get the message, or didn't believe it if they did get it,…

> NOAA was forcasting record flooding days before the storm.

The NWS forecast record flooding about 36 hours (!) before the storm hit. They only issued a flood watch shortly before everything became unpassable. Perhaps it was unavoidable, but the NWS has some serious explaining to do.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2024/10/04/helene...

Re: Pilot flying Helene rescue missions in NC threatened with arrest

#146

Post by JumpCrisscross »

kuschku wrote: post #76
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ACAB This is ambitiously wrong to the point of parody. One, fire chiefs are not cops. Two, the cops in the story were coördinating with the pilot. Three, the fucking pilot is a “a Class 1 certified law enforcement officer.”

ACAB applies in the sense that ACAB can be seen as a general critique of all hierarchical authority, not just law enforcement officers on duty. It's obvious that the previous pointer did not use such a strict interpretation of ACAB and applying such an interpretation here only serves to poison the discussion.

> ACAB applies in the sense that ACAB can be seen as a general critique of all hierarchical authority

This is an unconventional take. ACAB may be meant by some to mean anarchy. But it’s fundamentally an anti-police sentiment. (Anarchy is also an odd philosophy to reach for in the wake of a natural disaster.)

Re: Pilot flying Helene rescue missions in NC threatened with arrest

#147

Post by user_7832 »

philistine wrote: post #130
0xbadc0de5 wrote: post #20

If you're stuck for days without food, water or electricity, who do you want running to the rescue - the guy with a helicopter, or the bureaucrat with a rule book?

The bureaucrat with a rule book, every time.

Well then you’ll then end up dead and your family will be told that politicians have sent thoughts and prayers their way. Hope that’s what you wanted?

Re: Pilot flying Helene rescue missions in NC threatened with arrest

#148

Post by user_7832 »

voidUpdate wrote: post #83
fleabagmange wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not a place of work. It’s America. It’s also a disaster zone beyond anything some keyboard warriors need be pontificating on. Ive personally had to deliver diesel into Asheville to rescue family with a two month old over the weekend. You might see some nice PR photos coming out from the last day or two of Chinooks and cargo drops but at the time this incident occurred, there was nothing going on out there. If yo…

It is the place of work of the disaster recovery people, who have established communication channels and procedures. If there is literally nobody coming to help you, then it may be reasonable to go ahead and do it yourself, but it feels incredibly unwise to do it if there are already people trying to do things

> It is the place of work of the disaster recovery people

Depending on the details of aviation airspace, it’s possibly also the place of work of anybody with a pilot’s license and a suitable aircraft. General aviation allows massive leeways.

Re: Pilot flying Helene rescue missions in NC threatened with arrest

#149

Post by jquery »

exar0815 wrote: post #46
_djo_ wrote: post #11

While this sort of thing sounds excessive and unfair at first glance, and the article is written with a clear slant, there's usually a good reason for it. Disaster response and rescue air missions are enormously complex with a lot of moving parts, and allowing anyone with an aircraft to get involved can actually make the entire response less effective. It's extremely common for disaster response and search & rescue t…

Having been part in localized efforts after a similar event, it's nearly always that the national emergency response is late, slowly, bureaucratic and makes things worse. Some Bigwigs talking over people with local knowledge, ignoring advice, wanting to press their processes and rules... Most people, after a couple of days were all aligned 'Leave the money and the equipment, we will do the rest.'

All these rules and processes are written in blood. Just because you don’t understand the reasoning behind them doesn’t mean there aren’t very good reasons for them. It’s the same with commercial aviation, with most accidents caused by “cowboy pilots” who think they know better than all the stuffy rules and boring regulations that keep it all safe.

Re: Pilot flying Helene rescue missions in NC threatened with arrest

#150

Post by jquery »

ekianjo wrote: post #126
_djo_ wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without clear evidence of incompetence, why would I prioritise that option? The official's actions make sense in terms of existing and normal regulations and practices in disasters. Also, if you don't want to deal with local fire chiefs who don't know everything about the air operations, maybe don't approach them first and instead approach the actual units and organisations that are coordinating the air response.

> Without clear evidence of incompetence Incompetence is the default state of every human organization. You rather need proof of competence not to assume it.

If you want to go by rules of thumb, the incompetence is a lot more likely to be the cowboy who went to the media to put first responders on blast because his “heroic” assistance was rerouted to the proper channels.
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