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Pilot flying Helene rescue missions in NC threatened with arrest

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Re: Pilot flying Helene rescue missions in NC threatened with arrest

#61

Post by jquery »

nrjames wrote: post #41

I've spent a significant amount of time working in disaster response. In the US (and probably elsewhere), you have "Disaster Cowboys." These are people who are untrained but fancy they know better how to do things than people who have spent their lives training for these types of scenarios. Picture 1000 people showing up with their pickups and John boats following Hurricane Katrina. Or, imagine the Coast Guard conduc…

Imagine working your ass off trying to rescue people and someone goes to the media after being asked to coordinate through proper channels and sends a pitchfork mob after you.

Re: Pilot flying Helene rescue missions in NC threatened with arrest

#62

Post by jquery »

lukan wrote: post #57
nrjames wrote: post #41

I've spent a significant amount of time working in disaster response. In the US (and probably elsewhere), you have "Disaster Cowboys." These are people who are untrained but fancy they know better how to do things than people who have spent their lives training for these types of scenarios. Picture 1000 people showing up with their pickups and John boats following Hurricane Katrina. Or, imagine the Coast Guard conduc…

"It is desperately unfair to them when somebody untrained, with a "cowboy" attitude, shows up and flips the script. " Those rescued by the cowboys did not expressed that. Sure, everyone prefers the professionals to show up, but if they don't, because they are overwhelmed by the situation, I surely would be glad, if an "cowboy" comes instead to pick me up. Troublemakers in search for attention are to be kept away for…

The article is written with an obvious slant, from the perspective of a guy who decided to go to the media to bash first responders after being asked to coordinate via proper channels.

I would take anything he said with a huge grain of salt.

Re: Pilot flying Helene rescue missions in NC threatened with arrest

#63

Post by kortilla »

nrjames wrote: post #41

I've spent a significant amount of time working in disaster response. In the US (and probably elsewhere), you have "Disaster Cowboys." These are people who are untrained but fancy they know better how to do things than people who have spent their lives training for these types of scenarios. Picture 1000 people showing up with their pickups and John boats following Hurricane Katrina. Or, imagine the Coast Guard conduc…

This is a bunch of gatekeeping with “yeah, they save lives, but might cause harm”. Has anyone actually done analysis to determine if a bunch of amateurs is actually a net negative?

Search and rescue people get upset by these people not following authority, but that’s a standard response anytime amateurs show up to something. It’s the same dilemma of allowing regular people to serve food to large groups. Sure, discourage it if there is enough actual food to serve the survivors, but you sure as hell shouldn’t be doing it when the alternative is starvation.

The same applies when you have dudes like this pilot who was flying where nobody else was. The people out there had 0% chance of rescue without him. Grounding “the cowboy” is just an authority flex.

Re: Pilot flying Helene rescue missions in NC threatened with arrest

#64

Post by misiek08 »

dod9er wrote: post #53

It strange how little news coverage this situation gets in the rest of the world...

We had 2 weeks parts of countries being destroyed by water in Europe. I was in NYC that time and saw maybe 1 minute of info in TV. Sometimes I think that’s maybe it is better this way.

Re: Pilot flying Helene rescue missions in NC threatened with arrest

#66

Post by gruez »

FearNotDaniel wrote: post #28
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ACAB This is ambitiously wrong to the point of parody. One, fire chiefs are not cops. Two, the cops in the story were coördinating with the pilot. Three, the fucking pilot is a “a Class 1 certified law enforcement officer.”

I agree with everything you wrote, except: using that pretentious "hey look, I read the New Yorker" diaeresis is a surefire way to alienate the sort of person who thinks "ACAB" belongs in an adult conversation. Though it doesn't sound like you were trying to make friends.

>using that pretentious "hey look, I read the New Yorker" diaeresis is a surefire way to alienate the sort of person who thinks "ACAB" belongs in an adult conversation.

Why? I thought the "ACAB" crowd are well educated (or at least like to think they are), and generally like European-adjacent things like adding diaeresis in English? If anything, on the "ACAB thin blue line" spectrum, I'd expect the latter to be inflamed by the "I read the New Yorker diaeresis" more.

Re: Pilot flying Helene rescue missions in NC threatened with arrest

#67

Post by tokai »

dod9er wrote: post #53

It strange how little news coverage this situation gets in the rest of the world...

Its not that news worthy outside of the states. Europe has their own floods right now, and have had the last couple of years. Its also nothing compared to the weather catastrophes other places in the world routinely overlooked by western press.

So no, not strange at all.

Re: Pilot flying Helene rescue missions in NC threatened with arrest

#68

Post by trhway »

mulmen wrote: post #43
throwaway346434 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, nonsense. This local police officer had no idea what they were doing. Otherwise, they would have restricted the airspace on an ongoing basis: https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/foa_html... They did it temporarily, and once. At loggerheads with other rescue efforts.

Fire chief, not police officer.

does either have any authority over airspace? There seems to be encroachment of local and state powers on the airspace, like for example states passing the laws de-facto prohibiting any meaningful flying of drones. Drones in emergencies like this could have been very useful. Of course, one could immediately say that adding drones, especially if a large number of them, would complicate things - yet it is the obvious catch-22 - why no advanced control system of flying of large number of drones have so far been developed? - because de-facto no drone flying is allowed.

Re: Pilot flying Helene rescue missions in NC threatened with arrest

#69

Post by traceroute66 »

_djo_ wrote: post #11

While this sort of thing sounds excessive and unfair at first glance, and the article is written with a clear slant, there's usually a good reason for it. Disaster response and rescue air missions are enormously complex with a lot of moving parts, and allowing anyone with an aircraft to get involved can actually make the entire response less effective. It's extremely common for disaster response and search & rescue t…

> This is one guy and his helicopter, which in the greater scheme of things isn't so bad. But imagine it's 20, 30, or a 100 all doing what he's doing.

Also don't forget the basic motto of First Responders .... "don't become a statistic by adding yourself to the count".

The fact of the matter here also is that law enforcement, first responders, search and rescue etc. etc. do this sort of stuff all day long every day. They have training, they have well established lines of communication, etc. etc.

One guy and his helicopter trying to be a hero is, sadly, only likely to cause more problems than fix them. The professionals on the ground would likely rather have random civilians "out of their hair" instead of hanging around "trying to be helpful".

If the civilian professionals have trouble keeping up, they have lines of communication up to the military for backup support.

I know it sounds harsh. But really, in a first-world country like the US, just leave it to the professionals and the well established protocols.

Re: Pilot flying Helene rescue missions in NC threatened with arrest

#70

Post by kstenerud »

_djo_ wrote: post #11

While this sort of thing sounds excessive and unfair at first glance, and the article is written with a clear slant, there's usually a good reason for it. Disaster response and rescue air missions are enormously complex with a lot of moving parts, and allowing anyone with an aircraft to get involved can actually make the entire response less effective. It's extremely common for disaster response and search & rescue t…

“He originally asked me who I was. I gave him the same information, who I was with, my background experience, law enforcement, and firefighting. And his response was, if you have that kind of experience, you should know that you should be coordinating with us. And I said, I’ve been coordinating with everybody as I’ve been here just the day before, speaking with local law enforcement, other rescue personnel,” Seidhom recalled.

Seidhom said he tried to de-escalate and asked the official for instructions on how to communicate with the Lake Lure Fire Department while he was flying a rescue mission near the town. Seidhom said the fire official ordered him to leave and not come back.

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This sounds a lot more like ego to me. A rational person would have pointed him to the right people to coordinate with, not keep escalating to the point of threatening him with arrest if he goes to pick up his co-pilot (his son) who was still on the mountainside.

And this is ESPECIALLY bad with the Carolina Emergency Response Team so DESPERATE for civvie copters (because the military ones are too heavy).

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