Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors • Hacker News Board

Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors

#141

Post by xenithorb » Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 4:28 PM UTC

thenonsequitur wrote: post #117

xenithorb wrote: post #92

I'm a 25 year-old former Marine who thought he could take a shot at being a programmer when he exited the military. I never had any background in programming other than being interested in UNIX and Linux at a young age, so CS seemed like the logical choice for someone who had a GI bill to burn. 2 years and a lot of classes later, I'm realizing I'm too old to compete at this gig, and I should have started when I was 1…

The truth is, programming is honestly not so hard. It just seems that way to you because it's so easy to convince yourself of that. I want to emphatically remind you that it's not. You have to believe that it's not hard before you can get good at it. And it doesn't help that programming courses, like much of school, sometimes suck the excitement and imagination right out of you while simultaneously instilling fear. F…

I would absolutely love to dedicate the time to doing this the way I think, and know, it should be done (I taught myself html, javascript, early css when I was 11 because I thought it was fun, like everyone else my age probably... but I remember how it felt in comparison with what I'm doing now, and I know that teaching yourself through sheer passion was far more fruitful and entertaining.) Unfortunately, time ends up being the most precious commodity, and I'm not sure I've learned how to juggle that properly and still maintain a roof over my head, yet.

Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors

#142

Post by RedwoodCity » Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 4:29 PM UTC

cannuk wrote: post #114

I hate it when places like Bloomberg purport to tell me what is going to happen with the rest of my career. I will be 32 at the end of this week, and you know what? I am not stopping this programming thing anytime soon. This article is written for the people that would get into our craft based on the fact that Software Engineer was just named the top job. If you love to build, if you love to create, if you love to pr…

The title "33% of Software Engineers no longer writing code at 40" doesn't have the same ring.

Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors

#143

Post by biot » Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 4:31 PM UTC

xenithorb wrote: post #92

I'm a 25 year-old former Marine who thought he could take a shot at being a programmer when he exited the military. I never had any background in programming other than being interested in UNIX and Linux at a young age, so CS seemed like the logical choice for someone who had a GI bill to burn. 2 years and a lot of classes later, I'm realizing I'm too old to compete at this gig, and I should have started when I was 1…

Personally, I wouldn't be focused too much on university and your age doesn't matter a whole lot. While a degree in CS is a nice feather in your cap, I've interviewed (and unfortunately had to work with) people who had the right credentials on paper, but couldn't program their way out of a wet paper bag. IMHO, there's only two things you need: passion and aptitude. If you lack either or both, perhaps being a programmer isn't the right career choice for you.

Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors

#144

Post by jiggy2011 » Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 4:31 PM UTC

xenithorb wrote: post #126

jiggy2011 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the competition is outrageous at the top end of programming jobs, also bear in mind that you are reading HN where many of the commentators are above average programmers who dream in code. However just because you might not land a job at Google does not mean you will not be able to create a decent career for yourself. If you can get any experience working on OSS at all, especially on a reasonably well known proj…

Thank you for your input. I'm not sure how to get into the Operation side of things, I might have to inquire with a career counselor about that path, if it's an avenue that I can take. I'm aware that my time in is worth something, as I did obtain rank that probably looks decent , but I'm slightly edgy as to how it will be received. (I was an infantry Sgt.) Some have some derogatory views of how we are and I'm reticen…

One way to get into operations (albeit not a pleasant one) is through helpdesk jobs. These are typically repetitive and low paid but if you can get in with the right company and prove aptitude there is often a concrete career path.

It is important to get in with the right company though as many helpdesks are basically outsourced to the lowest bidder and end up being dead end script reading jobs (done those myself, do not recommend).

One company that might be worth looking at would be Rackspace (they host the website for the British Army so I would assume they are not anti-military) they are also a pretty large and growing company.

Another option would be to work with a small web dev shop. Usually they are not looking for uber-coders but for people who can produce consistent work on time. Also Linux knowledge (if you also know your way around Apache) tends to be very useful to these guys as they may be so small that they don't have a full time sysadmin on staff and are constantly being frustrated by the slow response times of their hosting providers support staff.

Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors

#145

Post by over40guy4 » Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 4:34 PM UTC

patio11 wrote: post #33

How many English majors are still in "English" at age 40? Many of them will have exited the workforce , started their own business, changed careers, or leveled up high enough that their occupational classification the government uses changes. Programmers do all these things, too. I love programming. I didn't even make it to thirty as a "programmer"! (P.S. There exist lots of benefits to not calling yourself a program…

I doubt many 40+ programmers are going to come out in support of this article. In cases of discrimination, you are labeled a crybaby so it's better to just stay quite. HN is mostly young and the only 40+ ones here are the type who like puzzles or in top 1 percentile of programming (e.g. patio11). For a vast majority of 40+ programmers, the reality is as grim as painted in this article.

If you are not in top 1 percentile of programming abilities, you better move to management. This is hard for someone who isn't verbally aggressive. Positions for management require X years of managing Y employees so if didn't make the move early on, you are doomed. Given that there isn't a puzzle/test type of way to rank managers, the management positions get doled out as opposed to competed for. You have to be in the shoes of a 40+ programmer who is not in top 1 percentile to know this :-(

Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors

#146

Post by xenithorb » Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 4:35 PM UTC

pirateking wrote: post #132

xenithorb wrote: post #92

I'm a 25 year-old former Marine who thought he could take a shot at being a programmer when he exited the military. I never had any background in programming other than being interested in UNIX and Linux at a young age, so CS seemed like the logical choice for someone who had a GI bill to burn. 2 years and a lot of classes later, I'm realizing I'm too old to compete at this gig, and I should have started when I was 1…

Perhaps, try an alternate method of learning. Drop the course load, and instead think of some ideas that you really want to see happen (doesn't matter how trivial, or whether it has already been done). Then go make it happen. Along the way you will definitely learn what you need to, and it should be a fun and rewarding journey. Using the free resources available on the internet, you may also pick up quite a bit of CS…

I will check this out, thanks.

Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors

#147

Post by adrianhoward » Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 4:36 PM UTC

GFischer wrote: post #37

nirvana wrote: post #24

There's a persistent myth that needs to be put down: It doesn't get at all harder to learn new technologies when you get older. In fact, it gets a whole lot easier. There's an old saying "You can't teach an old dog new tricks", and this is true, to the extent that any cliche can be, when referring to people becoming set in their ways. For many professions, where the technology doesn't' change, this is true. For progr…

I'm 31, and I have coworkers in their late 30s and early 40s, working in a large multinational with legacy systems. The truth is, while it doesn't get that much mentally harder to learn new technologies, it is very hard psychologically. For someone used to a large paycheck, to being the go-to guy in the technology and set in their 9-to-5 ways, to get out of their comfort zone, and admit that what they know is no long…

So, rather than update themselves and make up all that lost ground from getting too comfortable, they'll try to keep in place the old legacy systems only they can maintain.

The flip side of that problem is dealing with the bright young things of all ages who thinks it'll be a couple of weeks work to rewrite that COBOL legacy app in in Clojure/MongoDB. Y'know - the one that's been correctly doing the interest payments for the last twenty years. How hard could it be?....

Guess what's not fixed one year and £200k later... :-)

Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors

#148

Post by chaostheory » Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 4:37 PM UTC

adrianhoward wrote: post #136

chaostheory wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"He seems to have missed making the point in the title." I think his title was more of a gimmick to catch people's eyes; I think it worked. "I think the perception that 40 year olds are not up to date on technology is laughable" I strongly feel that this depends on whether the 40 year old likes programming for its own sake, or they feel that it's just part of a 'clock in' and 'clock out' job. It's also very difficult…

I strongly feel that this depends on whether the 40 year old likes programming for its own sake, or they feel that it's just part of a 'clock in' and 'clock out' job Your right. It is. Then again it's equally true of the 20 year old in my experience. Most people in their forties who are still cutting code have been through three or four "fashionable" languages and have done serious work in all of them. You'll be amaz…

"Most people in their forties who are still cutting code have been through three or four 'fashionable' languages"

I'm not sure where you're located, but in my experience even in Silicon Valley this is very rare. Most of the older engineers are either all about C++ or Java. A few may tinker a little with a new language, but they rarely take a risk to do more serious work with them. Moreover, many of them just transition to managerial positions. This is even more pronounced in less progressive metros like the South Eastern US.

I feel that one main reason I've been able (and will continue) to avoid this trap of comfort is because I'm a neophile.

Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors

#149

Post by spatten » Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 4:42 PM UTC

GFischer wrote: post #37

nirvana wrote: post #24

There's a persistent myth that needs to be put down: It doesn't get at all harder to learn new technologies when you get older. In fact, it gets a whole lot easier. There's an old saying "You can't teach an old dog new tricks", and this is true, to the extent that any cliche can be, when referring to people becoming set in their ways. For many professions, where the technology doesn't' change, this is true. For progr…

I'm 31, and I have coworkers in their late 30s and early 40s, working in a large multinational with legacy systems. The truth is, while it doesn't get that much mentally harder to learn new technologies, it is very hard psychologically. For someone used to a large paycheck, to being the go-to guy in the technology and set in their 9-to-5 ways, to get out of their comfort zone, and admit that what they know is no long…

This is going to sound more dramatic than it was, but here's one way of summarizing the last five years of my life:

I was 35, working at a great job as a physicist. Amazing team (I was usually the dumbest guy in the room), amazing project, but I was bored. I knew that if this didn't make me happy, I needed to get out. I read a few PG essays, caught the startup bug, and started coding in the evenings.

Within 8 months, with a brand-new daughter and another that was two, I was gone from that job, working on my own. In that 8 months I had taught myself web-dev from scratch.

I knew nothing of Ruby, HTML, CSS or JavaScript. I had a smattering of Unix knowledge and had been coding data-analysis in Python and C for a while, but the amount I had to learn was staggering. I bought tons of books, learned tons, and (luckily) had no idea how much I still had to learn.

The first startup idea (online graphing software for physicists -- I didn't exactly reach far for the idea) was a complete flop. That's okay, though. I turned to consulting for a while. Gave some talks. Wrote part of a book. Met my co-founder by consulting for him for a while.

Now, things are good. Leanpub is growing steadily, and I couldn't be happier.

The point is, that you can and should teach yourself some new skills. You're way closer to being employable than I was, that's for sure. It may take some evenings and weekends, but they'll be some of the most fun evening and weekends you ever have. Find something that you want to do and build it. Fall in love with the idea, but be ready to dump it for something better.

The market for people with even a smattering of Rails knowledge is huge. iPhone dev is bigger. or Erlang. or fancy JavaScript using Socket.IO.

Location doesn't matter. Age doesn't matter (I'm 40 now, in Vancouver, not in SV, and I bet I could find 10 jobs at the drop of a hat). My blog isn't huge. My startup hasn't had "an exit".

There are excuses, and there is getting out there and having a blast learning and making your life better.

Seems like an easy choice. Go kick some ass.

Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors

#150

Post by wissler » Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 4:45 PM UTC

The element of truth in this article is that wisdom is not only not valued by many companies' management, it is actively despised. What they want from a software developer is a cog in a machine, not someone who has enough wisdom to to see how things would be much better if over the long term fundamental changes were made.

After years of doing the same stupid things year after year without ever thinking very deeply (due to such thinking being of no value in that environment), the cog gets burned out, slow, and stupid, and is then easily replaced with a younger cog.