Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors • Hacker News Board

Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors

#31

Post by dalore » Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 2:07 PM UTC

nirvana wrote: post #24

There's a persistent myth that needs to be put down: It doesn't get at all harder to learn new technologies when you get older. In fact, it gets a whole lot easier. There's an old saying "You can't teach an old dog new tricks", and this is true, to the extent that any cliche can be, when referring to people becoming set in their ways. For many professions, where the technology doesn't' change, this is true. For progr…

It's also easier to learn new technologies and languages since so many share the same concepts.

Also what's old is new again but just done in different mediums.

Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors

#32

Post by dmpk2k » Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 2:07 PM UTC

jwoah12 wrote: post #19

sausagefeet wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think newer programmer's just work for less. There really isn't that much new under the sun in software engineering.

Really? And here I was thinking that my discipline was one of the most rapidly evolving on the planet...

This betrays a stark lack of perspective. What's old is often new again, in different guises.

Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors

#33

Post by patio11 » Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 2:07 PM UTC

How many English majors are still in "English" at age 40? Many of them will have exited the workforce , started their own business, changed careers, or leveled up high enough that their occupational classification the government uses changes.

Programmers do all these things, too.

I love programming. I didn't even make it to thirty as a "programmer"! (P.S. There exist lots of benefits to not calling yourself a programmer.)

Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors

#34

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 2:07 PM UTC

nirvana wrote: post #24

There's a persistent myth that needs to be put down: It doesn't get at all harder to learn new technologies when you get older. In fact, it gets a whole lot easier. There's an old saying "You can't teach an old dog new tricks", and this is true, to the extent that any cliche can be, when referring to people becoming set in their ways. For many professions, where the technology doesn't' change, this is true. For progr…

[deleted]

Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors

#35

Post by peterb » Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 2:09 PM UTC

nirvana wrote: post #24

There's a persistent myth that needs to be put down: It doesn't get at all harder to learn new technologies when you get older. In fact, it gets a whole lot easier. There's an old saying "You can't teach an old dog new tricks", and this is true, to the extent that any cliche can be, when referring to people becoming set in their ways. For many professions, where the technology doesn't' change, this is true. For progr…

I prefer "It is hard to teach a new dog old tricks". Much of today's cruft was originally written by new dogs.

Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors

#36

Post by jiggy2011 » Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 2:09 PM UTC

I think some of the reason for this is that younger people are more likely to start their programming careers with the current "cool" tools/languages whereas the older programmers will have large amounts of experience and therefor be most valuable (and able to command better salaries) maintaining software that is becoming legacy.

Take myself for example, I started doing programming seriously around 2001 when PHP/MySQL was the hot technology. This meant that I got a lot of experience quickly in a field that was high in demand for new projects. This means of course that I now have several years of PHP experience and could get a PHP job relatively easily.

However very few new cool startups etc are being built using PHP but that is not a problem since there is still plenty of PHP around, however what happens in 10-20 years when all of the PHP codebases have been retired and everything is done in NodeJS or whatever.

I will be competing for jobs with recent graduates who "came up" using Node and who will be willing to work for lower salaries. I may have more experience than them in programming but probably not in something like Node. Sure I will be able to learn these skills on my own time to an extent but probably not with the sheer enthusiasm and vigor that an 18 year old who is dreaming of making his million dollar idea could muster.

Of course there are areas like algorithms etc that do not change so much over time, but the odds are that a bright college grad will be able to remember his CS classes much more clearly than an older developer would (unless the older dev had reason to exercise those skills often during his career).

The main thing an older developer would be able to offer is Wisdom, but this is largely something for which there is not a high value placed in modern software.

Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors

#37

Post by GFischer » Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 2:09 PM UTC

nirvana wrote: post #24

There's a persistent myth that needs to be put down: It doesn't get at all harder to learn new technologies when you get older. In fact, it gets a whole lot easier. There's an old saying "You can't teach an old dog new tricks", and this is true, to the extent that any cliche can be, when referring to people becoming set in their ways. For many professions, where the technology doesn't' change, this is true. For progr…

I'm 31, and I have coworkers in their late 30s and early 40s, working in a large multinational with legacy systems.

The truth is, while it doesn't get that much mentally harder to learn new technologies, it is very hard psychologically.

For someone used to a large paycheck, to being the go-to guy in the technology and set in their 9-to-5 ways, to get out of their comfort zone, and admit that what they know is no longer relevant is scary as hell, especially for those with families.

So, rather than update themselves and make up all that lost ground from getting too comfortable, they'll try to keep in place the old legacy systems only they can maintain.

I got caught in that trap too, one of my main responsibilities is maintaining a Forte 4GL system ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forte_4GL ).

While I've kept myself relatively up to date, it was on Microsoft .NET technology only, and I'm still a few years behind. I wanted to supplement my income, and took a look at the online marketplace, and it confirmed what Hacker News was already showing me: my skills are useless, I don't know Ruby, Javascript, the open source stacks, Amazon Web Services or anything currently relevant and in demand.

I can either try to switch into management, or accept I'm obsolete and take a large pay cut (or try to improve myself on the side, probably by trying to do a startup) if I want to stay relevant.

Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors

#38

Post by angstrom » Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 2:11 PM UTC

dalore wrote: post #31

nirvana wrote: post #24

There's a persistent myth that needs to be put down: It doesn't get at all harder to learn new technologies when you get older. In fact, it gets a whole lot easier. There's an old saying "You can't teach an old dog new tricks", and this is true, to the extent that any cliche can be, when referring to people becoming set in their ways. For many professions, where the technology doesn't' change, this is true. For progr…

It's also easier to learn new technologies and languages since so many share the same concepts. Also what's old is new again but just done in different mediums.

Reminds me of a place I worked where we joked the company's technology was 180 degrees out of phase with whatever was the hot new thing. Looking at the code base you could see how it oscillated between what was hot or great at the time.

Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors

#39

Post by Cherian_Abraham » Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 2:11 PM UTC

Umm.. The author is not objective. He (Norman Matloff) had long since been spouting off on H1-B and why its bad. He also found a way to work it in to the article, in the same way that he had used in the past so effectively, to scare the current programmer segment in to being worried for their jobs.

I am not saying that H1-B isnt abused, but his take on it is largely one sided, and against.

Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors

#40

Post by 16s » Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 2:11 PM UTC

jwoah12 wrote: post #19

sausagefeet wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think newer programmer's just work for less. There really isn't that much new under the sun in software engineering.

Really? And here I was thinking that my discipline was one of the most rapidly evolving on the planet...

A loop is a loop. Math doesn't change much either. Nor does the concept of space and time, etc. It seems new and different to young people, but underneath, it's mostly the same as it was 40 years ago.