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App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app to Apple

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Re: App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app to Apple

#141

Post by Nullabillity »

newaccount74 wrote: post #130
cmeacham98 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it doesn't seem like I'm going to get a response to this, I'll walk down the rest of the logic for completeness's sake. I think we can both agree that "all unnecessary tracking is unethical" doesn't make sense and leads to insane conclusions like "all Nginx users with IP addresses in their logs are participating in unethical tracking". So we're back to square one, where someone needs to demonstrate this type…

I think the argument is a bit nuanced, but I see where the "tracking is bad" comes from. I think everyone would agree that it would be very bad if eg. an instant messaging app logged message contents and allowed devs to look at anyones messages. On the other hand, most people would not object to an app that sends an anonymous weekly counter of which buttons were tapped. Anything between these two takes a lot of care…

> On the other hand, most people would not object to an app that sends an anonymous weekly counter of which buttons were tapped.

Considering how often companies misuse even this data...

Re: App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app to Apple

#142

Post by Nullabillity »

tbjoern wrote: post #123
jesterson wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

How would you find out what causes user frustration? Company internal testing can only go so far, especially in a small team.

Ask them/make it easy for them to tell you?

Re: App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app to Apple

#143

Post by amelius »

coldtea wrote: post #138
amelius wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whatever Apple is doing, it should be possible to buy a phone and not have it phone home without permission. And you should be able to use the phone without ever contacting the vendor again. Otherwise you bought a service, not a product. Also, I recall a case where MacOS was asking Apple permission whenever the user wished to start an executable. This is nuts.

The line is blurry with smartphones, as all kinds of "smart" functionality IS a service, and depends on contacting the vendor. > Also, I recall a case where MacOS was asking Apple permission whenever the user wished to start an executable. This is nuts. Not that nuts. It's intended to be able to blacklist malware and such and retroactively disable it, through notarization (basically, registering apps to Apple and the…

> The line is blurry with smartphones, as all kinds of "smart" functionality IS a service, and depends on contacting the vendor.

No, because you can make your phone work with other service providers. The dependence on the original hardware vendor is artificial.

> It's intended to be able to blacklist malware

Choice of blacklists, content filters etc. is also orthogonal to the vendor.

Re: App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app to Apple

#144

Post by Eisenstein »

dkdbejwi383 wrote: post #108
yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That it's on your own app where you anyway know exactly which backend endpoint has been called by the user does. If it only exposed information the user was already sending, the vendor wouldn't bother with the spyware. > What private information do you think is sent to the vendor that would not be otherwise? Depends on the app; I expect, for instance, market apps (Amazon, Walmart, etc.) to watch the user's every mo…

> Depends on the app; I expect, for instance, market apps (Amazon, Walmart, etc.) to watch the user's every move to try and better model the user's mental state in an effort to get them to buy stuff that they wouldn't have done otherwise. Not being funny but I think you’re vastly overestimating the capabilities of most engineering teams.

> in an effort to

Just because they may be bad at something doesn't mean they don't attempt it.

Re: App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app to Apple

#145

Post by maronato »

SCLeo wrote: post #119
jjallen wrote: post #118

I don't know about you, but I basically assume every app is doing this. Is this really a surprise? Were not all apps doing this for a long time?

Instagram? Facebook? Maybe. I certainly did not think Apple would do this.

Apple isn’t the savior of privacy. Their privacy features will only go as far as they can market it, and only for as long as they can profit from it.

Re: App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app to Apple

#146

Post by scarface74 »

wasmitnetzen wrote: post #133
scarface74 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What data can apps collect without you giving them permission that websites can’t?

A unique identifier which is 100% stable over multiple sessions for once. Which makes the rest of the data so much more useful.

There are plenty of ways to uniquely enough identify a user on the web.

Re: App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app to Apple

#147

Post by nisegami »

SCLeo wrote: post #119
jjallen wrote: post #118

I don't know about you, but I basically assume every app is doing this. Is this really a surprise? Were not all apps doing this for a long time?

Instagram? Facebook? Maybe. I certainly did not think Apple would do this.

>I certainly did not think Apple would do this.

Their PR department certainly earns their keep.

Re: App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app to Apple

#148

Post by alickz »

wasmitnetzen wrote: post #133
scarface74 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What data can apps collect without you giving them permission that websites can’t?

A unique identifier which is 100% stable over multiple sessions for once. Which makes the rest of the data so much more useful.

Why is that possible in native apps but not websites?

Re: App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app to Apple

#149

Post by amelius »

simondotau wrote: post #139
amelius wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whatever Apple is doing, it should be possible to buy a phone and not have it phone home without permission. And you should be able to use the phone without ever contacting the vendor again. Otherwise you bought a service, not a product. Also, I recall a case where MacOS was asking Apple permission whenever the user wished to start an executable. This is nuts.

The merits of your arguments aside, Apple is not obliged to sell you a device that satisfies your personal requirements. Apple most definitely sells you a service, which is a managed computing platform. Alternatives exist. (And if they don’t, that’s not Apple’s problem.)

It's a different discussion but I don't buy the "alternatives exists" argument. There are huge network effects. Some governments even make apps only for the duopoly. Banks also. Yes, sometimes you can use websites instead of apps, but it is not the same thing. Alternatives exist only in theory. Companies should not have absolute freedom if this means that the freedom of the consumer is restricted in any way.

"Alternatives exists" sounds a lot like this fallacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergo_decedo

The world isn't as simple as: there are companies and they can sell whatever they like, and there are consumers and they can buy whatever they like, because that would end very badly for the consumers.

Re: App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app to Apple

#150

Post by endisneigh »

amelius wrote: post #149
simondotau wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The merits of your arguments aside, Apple is not obliged to sell you a device that satisfies your personal requirements. Apple most definitely sells you a service, which is a managed computing platform. Alternatives exist. (And if they don’t, that’s not Apple’s problem.)

It's a different discussion but I don't buy the "alternatives exists" argument. There are huge network effects. Some governments even make apps only for the duopoly. Banks also. Yes, sometimes you can use websites instead of apps, but it is not the same thing. Alternatives exist only in theory. Companies should not have absolute freedom if this means that the freedom of the consumer is restricted in any way. "Alterna…

What do you mean in theory? You can buy a Pinephone today. If your government isn’t making web sites it seems like you should take that up with them.
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