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Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

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Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#141

Post by dale_glass »

commandlinefan wrote: post #125
HighInquisitor wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I struggle to grasp how this kind of libertarian vision of the world can possibly be maintained by anyone who actually observes how the world works. No, markets don't self-regulate. Companies won't stop working with Amazon across the board, and those that do will be replaced by companies willing to work for less, because they're full of people willing to work for less. We know that's how this works. We know that peop…

> markets don't self-regulate The linked article is an example of the market self-regulating.

I would like this to work, but I think Amazon won't really care.

They're big enough to work around the problem. Take advantage of that a bunch of drivers are suddenly without work, find another company willing to work with them, and soon enough things are back to the way they were at the start.

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#142

Post by matz1 »

axaxs wrote: post #56

I don't get Amazon's play here. Just charge me more money for items, and pay your people well. I'd rather have a happy safe driver than a miserable one at the end of his or her rope, all so I could save a dollar. Reminds me of Papa John complaining giving his employees healthcare would make prices go up 14 cents per pizza. Seriously? Who cares about 14 cents when ordering a pizza... Amazon's entire value to me is fas…

Thats you but I think majority of people, including me, would rather save a dollar.

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#143

Post by tablespoon »

commandlinefan wrote: post #125
HighInquisitor wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I struggle to grasp how this kind of libertarian vision of the world can possibly be maintained by anyone who actually observes how the world works. No, markets don't self-regulate. Companies won't stop working with Amazon across the board, and those that do will be replaced by companies willing to work for less, because they're full of people willing to work for less. We know that's how this works. We know that peop…

> markets don't self-regulate The linked article is an example of the market self-regulating.

> The linked article is an example of the market self-regulating.

Unemployed workers starving to death with their families due to lack of income would also be an example of the market self-regulating.

The market self-regulates, but it often self-regulates to optimize the wrong thing. The people who celebrate that self-regulation usually leave that qualification out, or just deny it completely.

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#144

Post by [deleted] »

tablespoon wrote: post #104
relax88 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s not like there’s a club of past & future delivery company operators that meets regularly Why not? “National Delivery Drivers Union” sounds pretty good to me for a name. If you want to negotiate with leverage against Amazon, you need to actually have the leverage. Why is collective bargaining so weak in this industry?

> Why is collective bargaining so weak in this industry? I think because small companies, not workers are the actors here. If the companies themselves got together, it might be interpreted as some kind of illegal cartel. However, it's kind of interesting to consider the idea of a union of small companies (that's permitted only because they're too week vis-a-vis their customers/vendors that they can be explioted, akin…

[deleted]

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#145

Post by [deleted] »

relax88 wrote: post #98
tablespoon wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is more or less how it should be. If Amazon isn't going to offer a good enough deal, then companies shouldn't move packages for them. Not really. These companies are basically committing suicide, because Amazon is in such a dominant position. The way is should be is that they could have put pressure on Amazon much earlier, instead of being forced into such extreme action. Nothing will change. Amazon will just…

> It’s not like there’s a club of past & future delivery company operators that meets regularly Why not? “National Delivery Drivers Union” sounds pretty good to me for a name. If you want to negotiate with leverage against Amazon, you need to actually have the leverage. Why is collective bargaining so weak in this industry?

[deleted]

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#146

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

commandlinefan wrote: post #125
HighInquisitor wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I struggle to grasp how this kind of libertarian vision of the world can possibly be maintained by anyone who actually observes how the world works. No, markets don't self-regulate. Companies won't stop working with Amazon across the board, and those that do will be replaced by companies willing to work for less, because they're full of people willing to work for less. We know that's how this works. We know that peop…

> markets don't self-regulate The linked article is an example of the market self-regulating.

Small businesses being forced to decide between shutting down and operating unsafely with some minimal hope of profitability is indeed a perfect and inspiring example of how "markets self-regulate."

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#147

Post by MattGaiser »

tablespoon wrote: post #143
commandlinefan wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> markets don't self-regulate The linked article is an example of the market self-regulating.

> The linked article is an example of the market self-regulating. Unemployed workers starving to death with their families due to lack of income would also be an example of the market self-regulating. The market self-regulates, but it often self-regulates to optimize the wrong thing . The people who celebrate that self-regulation usually leave that qualification out, or just deny it completely.

In this case it self regulated because the market rate for drivers was too high.

The drivers are evidently employed in some way that makes their market rate that high.

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#149

Post by fmajid »

These are last-mile delivery workers. The Information had an excellent article a few weeks back about how dire the conditions are of their long-distance drivers who carry parcels between the warehouses. They have a much higher rate of accidents due to this, with innocent lives mangled and Amazon shielding itself behind the contractor status to dodge liability.

(paywalled) https://www.theinformation.com/articles/the-deadly-toll-of-a...

It is legally possible for judges to "pierce the veil" of limited liability in the case of severe malfeasance and I'd argue this is clearly the case, but our corporate-friendly judges see it otherwise.

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#150

Post by snapcaster »

whoknowswhat11 wrote: post #10

HN really needs to look at these types of headlines - They are written without qualification. 0.001 of Amazon delivery companies shut down 2 out if 2000 delivery companies shut down. Are both probably more accurate.

I don't think this is necessarily true. The headline phrasing and your phrasing both have ability to shift perception. Percentage based phrasing like yours isn't apolitical or free of rhetoric it's just a different framing
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