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Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

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Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#141

Post by newen »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #90
fit2rule wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I don't think there's some blanket obligation to be mild mannered. By all means, use incisive language to describe bad things! The problem is with passages like > but yeah, drop the ol' "Ma' Russians!" into the conversations, and heads explode. This isn't an attempt to vividly illustrate the problem or an expression of righteous anger. It's just trolling - it accomplishes nothing but inciting people to yell back at y…

It’s fact isn’t it? The US government as well as Americans themselves regularly use crimes done by Russia and China to distract from crimes done by their own government.

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#142

Post by justanotheranon »

jariel wrote: post #117
elmo2you wrote: post #16

> .. in the United States, it will likely be excluded as irrelevant because the Espionage Act does not allow a public interest defense. Remind me again, what made the USA any better than North Korea or any other off-the-rails criminal regime? If this statement about the Espionage Act is correct, then why is there even a discussion whether Assange will get a fair trial in the USA? It's plain as daylight that he never…

"Remind me again, what made the USA any better than North Korea or any other off-the-rails criminal regime?" ... is an intellectually offensive question. Posed in the open, by someone on an 'American' blog, in perfect safety knowing there would not remotely ever be any repercussions for posing the question.

you don't know that there won't be repercussions. perhaps when i say "America is already at dystopian North Korean levels of mass propaganda", my IP address is stored in XKEYSCORE and my cell phone billing info is cross referenced and my name is put on a Watchlist.

perhaps when i try to apply to a FedGov job, some automated sytem for scoring Inside Threats uses that Watchlist, and determines i am a security threat, and i am denied the job.

perhaps that automated scoring system is sold to the private sector, and then i am also denied jobs and bank loans and housing and travel when the system rejects me for unspecified reasons, since the existence of the secret Watchlist will never be known outside of FedGov.

through the existence of numerous forms of mass surveillance exposed by Wikileaks, we know the machinery of an automated social credit system has already been built. it's operational. the only question is how far along are they in putting it to use to truly turn us into a superficially happier nation sized prison camp like North Korea.

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#143

Post by cutemonster »

sudosysgen wrote: post #116
pftf wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Voting doesn't work for the most important issues, where human rights are being severely violated. It took a civil war for the end of slavery to begin in the US. It took decades of terrorism for the Irish to stop being as subjugated by the British in Northern Ireland. And so on. History indicates that what you really need in the US right now is some violent, direct action against those committing human rights atrocit…

While you're correct that historically, violence is very often required to redress these atrocities, and you're very correct that this is an uncomfortable fact that we like to ignore, the time for violence is when there is absolutely, positively, no other option. And we're not there yet. Very far from it, and there is still hope that it won't be needed. When a hundred million people will be on the street, and fire is…

The gov can put dissidents in prison, won't be any need to open fire on protestors. Works fine in another big country.

I think against wide spread surveillance, small arms cannot do much.

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#144

Post by justanotheranon »

AsyncAwait wrote: post #24
elmo2you wrote: post #16

> .. in the United States, it will likely be excluded as irrelevant because the Espionage Act does not allow a public interest defense. Remind me again, what made the USA any better than North Korea or any other off-the-rails criminal regime? If this statement about the Espionage Act is correct, then why is there even a discussion whether Assange will get a fair trial in the USA? It's plain as daylight that he never…

Exactly. A lot of people ask also why Snowden keeps "hiding" in Russia and doesn't come back to face the music. It's because he's not even allowed to use the public good defense per the Espionage Act. As for Assange, the poor man has already suffered enough, what the UN amounts to torture. This is despicable and anyone who is concerned about the Uyghurs, Rohingya etc. should voice a strong opposition to what is happe…

until the Espionage Act is ruled unconstitutional by SCOTUS, the war crimes and abuses of power exposed by Snowden and Assange will never be resolved.

Since 2013, I have come to view Assange and Snowden and future leakers and whistleblowers as necessary steps of the journey, but not the destination.

the destination is to create some contrived legal case that perfectly triggers multiple legal conditions which unlocks the door to be able to directly and openly challenge the espionage act in court. the US Intelligence Community have always gone to extraordinary contortions to prevent the Espionage Act itself from being invoked against the Press which could make it possible to challenge it. Even in Elsberg's case, his charges were dropped before SCOTUS could decide whether the Espionage Act applied to the Press and the Public Interest.

i think one reason why DOJ has been so rabid and vicious against Assange is because he is not a US Citizen, so they don't have to give him as much Freedom of Speech as they would an American.

i dont feel optimistic about Assange's case. if it was going to turn out good, that would have happened years ago.

i can only hope the spiritual successor to Wikileaks is led by an American who is wickedly clever enough to leak the right kind of top secrets that are scandalously in the Public Interest and thereby force a head on collision between SCOTUS, the Espionage Act and the First Amendment.

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#145

Post by boomboomsubban »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #106
boomboomsubban wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They've developed a false argument. Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a vocal critic of female genital mutilation, but many of her other positions are islamophobic. Positions like "we are at war with Islam and it must be defeated." In reality, I can both oppose female genital mutilation and consider Ayaan Hirsi Ali racist.

Islam isn’t a race. Criticisms of religions are perfectly reasonable and valid positions to hold.

Calling for Muslims to be militarily crushed isn't criticism, its bigotry of some sort even if you don't consider it racist.

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#146

Post by Fnoord »

mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #92
Fnoord wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem I have with him is that his massive leaks were politically motivated. The helicopter who shot journalists, that movie was genuine, and a proper leak. All the diplomatic cables being leaked? Clinton's e-mails? I don't believe all of that was in the public interest. He fell in the trap of making it political, us vs them (why he went in bed with the Russians), and disregarding operational safety.

I don’t see any basis it could be disputed in the case of the diplomatic cables. This very witness’s testimony proves it (as his torture and subsequent efforts by the US to pressure Germany and Spain to take no action when the criminal nature of it was learned - it was only brought to light because of the leaked cables, as explained in this post). These facts render it moot what you or I might personally think about…

My point isn't that there's no useful content in the cables; my opinion is that it wasn't screened well. The data was dumped, not carefully screened. Assange M.O. changed in that regard, somewhere in the past 10 years, and that is the moment where I started to believe his opponents had a point.

> In the case of the DNC email leaks, I could see a better argument that it was political, but then it also wouldn’t matter. None of the Espionage Act charges or accusations of putting US agents in grave harm are based on leaked DNC emails, only Iraq War leaks and the diplomatic cables. It would be awfully hard to prove any serious harm from publishing the DNC emails - and also the standard for publishers protected in that case is much higher. Keep in mind all that is proved that he did is publish them (no different than tons of other news outlets).

It pretty much affected the outcome of the election up to the point that we USA got an orangutan in office. It is something Russian troll farms and Cambridge Analytica were also trying to do. All three's actions affect our democratic process in a negative way (ie. we want stability not chaos right before an election). Is it basis to get him prosecuted via Espionage Act? No, but that Act is retarded either way; lets look at other laws instead. How about illegal access to a remote computer? Then we're getting to more fair waters. Another one is putting innocent lives in danger by leaking sensitive data.

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#147

Post by starfleet_bop »

saiya-jin wrote: post #97
pftf wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Voting doesn't work for the most important issues, where human rights are being severely violated. It took a civil war for the end of slavery to begin in the US. It took decades of terrorism for the Irish to stop being as subjugated by the British in Northern Ireland. And so on. History indicates that what you really need in the US right now is some violent, direct action against those committing human rights atrocit…

Take an inspiration from countries that get proper democracy right - like Switzerland. You can have public vote on anything, just gather enough signatures and it will happen. Result will be binding to government, whatever it means. This of course relies on population to be at least slightly smart and not dumb herd of easy to manipulate sheeps, but that's a basic premise of democracy in general.

Yeah, try Googling Swiss Nazi gold before advocating Swiss governance as a model to uphold.

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#148

Post by sudosysgen »

cutemonster wrote: post #143
sudosysgen wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While you're correct that historically, violence is very often required to redress these atrocities, and you're very correct that this is an uncomfortable fact that we like to ignore, the time for violence is when there is absolutely, positively, no other option. And we're not there yet. Very far from it, and there is still hope that it won't be needed. When a hundred million people will be on the street, and fire is…

The gov can put dissidents in prison, won't be any need to open fire on protestors. Works fine in another big country. I think against wide spread surveillance, small arms cannot do much.

The reason why it works in China is because, by and large, the people see their life improving and will support the government until there will be prolonged stagnation, if at all.

But yes, I meant it as a figure of speech more than anything.

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#149

Post by squarefoot »

arcticbull wrote: post #83
squarefoot wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is not the US people in any case, is their government. This a million times. I'm speaking broadly as I'm not from the US, however this applies pretty much to every country: "People are not their government" should be always considered when criticizing any nation or being criticized by others because of government politics. Identifying people with their government choices is the 1st step towards building hatred that…

> This a million times. I'm speaking broadly as I'm not from the US, however this applies pretty much to every country: "People are not their government" should be always considered when criticizing any nation or being criticized by others because of government politics. Disagreed completely. In a democracy, people are responsible for their governments. That's the whole idea of democracy. If you can pick your leaders…

People can vote, but the are lots of things out of control. In my country people can do squat about the government actions for example against organized crime, as much as all common US citizen could not decide whether invade Iraq or not after 9/11. Many actions by governments lie outside of any control by the people, which I concur very often a good thing, but when things end up really bad and the government becomes an alien entity with its own agenda, then calling it democracy doesn't help much.

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#150

Post by raincom »

saiya-jin wrote: post #97
pftf wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Voting doesn't work for the most important issues, where human rights are being severely violated. It took a civil war for the end of slavery to begin in the US. It took decades of terrorism for the Irish to stop being as subjugated by the British in Northern Ireland. And so on. History indicates that what you really need in the US right now is some violent, direct action against those committing human rights atrocit…

Take an inspiration from countries that get proper democracy right - like Switzerland. You can have public vote on anything, just gather enough signatures and it will happen. Result will be binding to government, whatever it means. This of course relies on population to be at least slightly smart and not dumb herd of easy to manipulate sheeps, but that's a basic premise of democracy in general.

Direct democracy always beats representative democracy. In the representative democracy, people have not voted for the content of the laws that the law makers pass. That's why Rousseau calls "representative democracy" slavery.

Direct democracy can work in small countries. Will it work in a country with 150M or 300M people? Will it work? Maybe, one has to schedule voting every 6 months, just like a train schedule.

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