What strikes me with the US is that they can be very progressive on some issues (e.g. lgbt rights), yet totally backward on others (torture, death penalty, mass incarceration and so on...).
The US is not particularly progressive on LGBT rights.
Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial
81–90 of 234 posts
Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial
#82Earlier quoted context omitted.
The former is distraction for the others. The left in USA has been convinced (or convinced itself) that identity politics is more important than human rights.
Does the USA have a left today? The right who voted for the new deal are left of today’s left. Today’s left are more right than yesterday’s right.
Yep, the two major parties are "center-right" and "far-right" politically. There are some leftists but they aren't represented, and because of the two-party system they won't be. Two parties ~= one party.
Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial
#83Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It’s totally absurd that US can kidnap random people outside their country. kidnap... and assassinate. Is not the US people in any case, is their government. And some of those people seem to have severe and worrying sadistic undercurrents in their personality. As human beings, torturers are a real failure.
> Is not the US people in any case, is their government. This a million times. I'm speaking broadly as I'm not from the US, however this applies pretty much to every country: "People are not their government" should be always considered when criticizing any nation or being criticized by others because of government politics. Identifying people with their government choices is the 1st step towards building hatred that…
> This a million times. I'm speaking broadly as I'm not from the US, however this applies pretty much to every country: "People are not their government" should be always considered when criticizing any nation or being criticized by others because of government politics.
Disagreed completely.
In a democracy, people are responsible for their governments. That's the whole idea of democracy. If you can pick your leadership you are responsible for who you pick and every single action they take. You get the credit for the good, and you get the blame for the bad. With great power comes great responsibility and whatnot.
In an autocracy where people cannot choose their leadership, it's more murky.
[edit] It's so weird to see this American blame shirking from the ground floor all the way to the president. "Well, I'm not responsible for the government just because I pick them," to staying home on Election Day and responding "well he's not my president," to POTUS' perennial "well, Obama and Hillary are really at fault."
Is nobody taking responsibility for anything anymore?
Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial
#84Earlier quoted context omitted.
I totally agree. First, many Americans don't support these acts, it's just beyond their control. And others do support them but either minimize them or believe they are justified for a greater good. And a lot are totally clueless and just have no idea of what's going on. There's a lot of propaganda, poor education and lack of information in the US. Just watch a presidential debate, it's a joke.
I agree with what you said, yet can't help but think that everyone who knows about this kind of thing and still doesn't think twice about which party to vote for, is responsible in some way. Every american is given a voice, to vote for the best party, the best candidate, based on what they know and believe. Voting is anonymous. You dont have to tell anyone what you voted for. Vote for a third party, or for whatever y…
Both parties support this. Citizens don't really have a say in how most of the government works.
Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial
#85Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree with what you said, yet can't help but think that everyone who knows about this kind of thing and still doesn't think twice about which party to vote for, is responsible in some way. Every american is given a voice, to vote for the best party, the best candidate, based on what they know and believe. Voting is anonymous. You dont have to tell anyone what you voted for. Vote for a third party, or for whatever y…
John Adams and George Washington believed a two-party state was a major threat to democracy, and it's pretty easy to see why. The reality is Democrats and Republicans are about 6 inches apart on every single major issue. Compare the platforms of the "left" and "right" here to other major democracies worldwide, and you'll see. Things are a little different with the current administration, but even that, the concrete p…
Until our governmental system is overhauled to allow for more democracy and less powerful individuals then the citizens really don't bare much responsibility for the actions of our masters. I live in a gerrymandered district with no real way to vote for my preferences and it doesn't look like it will get better anytime soon.
Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial
#86Earlier quoted context omitted.
John Adams and George Washington believed a two-party state was a major threat to democracy, and it's pretty easy to see why. The reality is Democrats and Republicans are about 6 inches apart on every single major issue. Compare the platforms of the "left" and "right" here to other major democracies worldwide, and you'll see. Things are a little different with the current administration, but even that, the concrete p…
Until our governmental system is overhauled to allow for more democracy and less powerful individuals then the citizens really don't bare much responsibility for the actions of our masters. I live in a gerrymandered district with no real way to vote for my preferences and it doesn't look like it will get better anytime soon.
I have a really hard time with that answer. In a democracy each individual is directly and personally responsible for their government. That's the power and the responsibility associated with picking your leadership. You get credit for the good and the blame for the bad.
In an autocracy, it's murkier.
Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial
#87Earlier quoted context omitted.
It’s totally absurd that US can kidnap random people outside their country.
> It’s totally absurd that US can kidnap random people outside their country. kidnap... and assassinate. Is not the US people in any case, is their government. And some of those people seem to have severe and worrying sadistic undercurrents in their personality. As human beings, torturers are a real failure.
That seems like the cheap way out.
The real shocker here is not that people do cruel things. Murderers carrying out abhorrent fantasies exist and existed everywhere, anytime.
Suppose I have such a personality, and that becomes known, my government then should do the appropriate medical and judical procedures.
When the government then goes "oh, here is 10k/month and a ticket to Macedonia and go live your dream", there is something truly, truly fucked up and it is not the individual in question.
And that grievance is a systemic one and therefor a responsibilty of the people should they have the intention to declare themselves as a democracy...
Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial
#88Earlier quoted context omitted.
You're just tone policing here. You should engage with the actual subject of the discussion, or say nothing at all. People aren't unemotional robots, and thus don't always conform to prejudices on what constitutes the 'correct' tone. It's more useful to criticize the substance of a persons words, not how they choose to express them.
I was explaining the issue to the commenter, since they seemed to be expressing honest confusion about why their comment comes across as incendiary. I certainly agree it's better to avoid engaging with inflammatory rhetoric, but we shouldn't let that become a refusal to help people moderate their tone when they don't mean to give offense.
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Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial
#89Earlier quoted context omitted.
In practice, human rights do take a back seat to identity politics. One of the most widespread forms of torture in the world, female genital mutilation, is out of bounds even for criticism, in the eyes of the typical person of the “left” in the U.S., and many Western European countries, today. Those who object to this barbarism, inflicted upon millions of girls every year, are actually, somehow, called “racists” for…
> Those who object to this barbarism, inflicted upon millions of girls every year, are actually, somehow, called “racists” for doing so. I am vehemently opposed to female genital mutilation. Even with HN's overly large number of contrarians and trolls, I claim no one can write a convincing argument that my previous sentence is in any way racist.
Why is it okay to perform the similar procedures on males?
It's an outdated , barbaric practice
Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial
#90Earlier quoted context omitted.
I was explaining the issue to the commenter, since they seemed to be expressing honest confusion about why their comment comes across as incendiary. I certainly agree it's better to avoid engaging with inflammatory rhetoric, but we shouldn't let that become a refusal to help people moderate their tone when they don't mean to give offense.
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I don't think there's some blanket obligation to be mild mannered. By all means, use incisive language to describe bad things! The problem is with passages like
> but yeah, drop the ol' "Ma' Russians!" into the conversations, and heads explode.
This isn't an attempt to vividly illustrate the problem or an expression of righteous anger. It's just trolling - it accomplishes nothing but inciting people to yell back at you.