Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial • Hacker News Board

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#91

Post by pastage » Sat, Sep 19, 2020, 4:44 PM UTC

pftf wrote: post #80

sandworm101 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats the problem with democracy: the people own the mistakes of those they elect. Dont like what they do? Vote them out of office. Arrest them. Jail them. If the system fails, fix the system.

Voting doesn't work for the most important issues, where human rights are being severely violated. It took a civil war for the end of slavery to begin in the US. It took decades of terrorism for the Irish to stop being as subjugated by the British in Northern Ireland. And so on. History indicates that what you really need in the US right now is some violent, direct action against those committing human rights atrocit…

No! Change is easy to get without violence. It's a myth that violence is more effective, ok maybe if you want someones lunch money.

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#92

Post by mlthoughts2018 » Sat, Sep 19, 2020, 4:45 PM UTC

Fnoord wrote: post #66

mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #40

A lot of comments are (rightfully) condemning American atrocity, but let’s not lose sight that it is defense for Assange as well. His actions clearly came with the moral imperative of whistleblowing - even just this one example shows the humanitarian crimes that would go unrevealed if the leaked documents weren’t published. There’s just no way to pretend like Assange caused harm or violated law - whistleblowing is no…

The problem I have with him is that his massive leaks were politically motivated. The helicopter who shot journalists, that movie was genuine, and a proper leak. All the diplomatic cables being leaked? Clinton's e-mails? I don't believe all of that was in the public interest. He fell in the trap of making it political, us vs them (why he went in bed with the Russians), and disregarding operational safety.

I don’t see any basis it could be disputed in the case of the diplomatic cables. This very witness’s testimony proves it (as his torture and subsequent efforts by the US to pressure Germany and Spain to take no action when the criminal nature of it was learned - it was only brought to light because of the leaked cables, as explained in this post).

These facts render it moot what you or I might personally think about his political motivations. Not only are such speculations not a basis for any of the charges, but the very evidence itself (the cables) requires us to see the humanitarian imperative that they be leaked and thus to view leakers and publishers as whistleblowers, setting all speculated internal motives we can’t prove (and which don’t supersede the moral imperative here) aside.

In the case of the DNC email leaks, I could see a better argument that it was political, but then it also wouldn’t matter. None of the Espionage Act charges or accusations of putting US agents in grave harm are based on leaked DNC emails, only Iraq War leaks and the diplomatic cables. It would be awfully hard to prove any serious harm from publishing the DNC emails - and also the standard for publishers protected in that case is much higher. Keep in mind all that is proved that he did is publish them (no different than tons of other news outlets).

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#93

Post by jhpriestley » Sat, Sep 19, 2020, 4:56 PM UTC

arcticbull wrote: post #77

lionkor wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with what you said, yet can't help but think that everyone who knows about this kind of thing and still doesn't think twice about which party to vote for, is responsible in some way. Every american is given a voice, to vote for the best party, the best candidate, based on what they know and believe. Voting is anonymous. You dont have to tell anyone what you voted for. Vote for a third party, or for whatever y…

John Adams and George Washington believed a two-party state was a major threat to democracy, and it's pretty easy to see why. The reality is Democrats and Republicans are about 6 inches apart on every single major issue. Compare the platforms of the "left" and "right" here to other major democracies worldwide, and you'll see. Things are a little different with the current administration, but even that, the concrete p…

You seem to think that if a party does not accomplish its policy objectives (closing gitmo, DACA) because the other party prevented it from accomplishing those objectives, it does not support them? interesting take :)

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#94

Post by ugexe » Sat, Sep 19, 2020, 4:58 PM UTC

pastage wrote: post #91

pftf wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Voting doesn't work for the most important issues, where human rights are being severely violated. It took a civil war for the end of slavery to begin in the US. It took decades of terrorism for the Irish to stop being as subjugated by the British in Northern Ireland. And so on. History indicates that what you really need in the US right now is some violent, direct action against those committing human rights atrocit…

No! Change is easy to get without violence. It's a myth that violence is more effective, ok maybe if you want someones lunch money.

Are you going to offer any supporting evidence at least like the post you are rebuking? All of human history seems to suggest violence is the most available resource for achieving any sort of change.

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#95

Post by pravda » Sat, Sep 19, 2020, 4:59 PM UTC

arcticbull wrote: post #77

lionkor wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with what you said, yet can't help but think that everyone who knows about this kind of thing and still doesn't think twice about which party to vote for, is responsible in some way. Every american is given a voice, to vote for the best party, the best candidate, based on what they know and believe. Voting is anonymous. You dont have to tell anyone what you voted for. Vote for a third party, or for whatever y…

John Adams and George Washington believed a two-party state was a major threat to democracy, and it's pretty easy to see why. The reality is Democrats and Republicans are about 6 inches apart on every single major issue. Compare the platforms of the "left" and "right" here to other major democracies worldwide, and you'll see. Things are a little different with the current administration, but even that, the concrete p…

Gore Vidal pointed this out many years ago:

  "There is only one party in the United States, the Property Party … and it has two right wings: Republican and Democrat. Republicans are a bit stupider, more rigid, more doctrinaire in their laissez-faire capitalism than the Democrats, who are cuter, prettier, a bit more corrupt — until recently … and more willing than the Republicans to make small adjustments when the poor, the black, the anti-imperialists get out of hand. But, essentially, there is no difference between the two parties."

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#96

Post by arcticbull » Sat, Sep 19, 2020, 5:00 PM UTC

jhpriestley wrote: post #93

arcticbull wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

John Adams and George Washington believed a two-party state was a major threat to democracy, and it's pretty easy to see why. The reality is Democrats and Republicans are about 6 inches apart on every single major issue. Compare the platforms of the "left" and "right" here to other major democracies worldwide, and you'll see. Things are a little different with the current administration, but even that, the concrete p…

You seem to think that if a party does not accomplish its policy objectives (closing gitmo, DACA) because the other party prevented it from accomplishing those objectives, it does not support them? interesting take :)

In 2009, 2010 and 2011, Obama was President and the House and Senate were both Democratic. Who was stopping Obama from closing GITMO during those three years? This was a campaign promise after all. Did DREAM'ers not exist at this time?

GITMO never closed because the US didn't find countries super willing to take in the detainees, and felt it would be "too distasteful" to let them stay in the US proper. Not a good case for violating human rights law, IMO, but to quote POTUS "it is what it is."

1993, 1994, 1995, Clinton was President and the House and Senate were both Democratic. Clinton's big immigration reform bill was the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996. It's purpose was to "[strengthen] the rule of law by cracking down on illegal immigration at the border, in the workplace, and in the criminal justice system — without punishing those living in the United States legally."

Clinton created the mass-deportation machine in use today. Clinton's bill made it harder to immigrate to the US. Clinton created the 3-year and 10-year re-entry bars that continue to separate loved ones to this day. If an unlawful resident marries a US citizen, they're entitled to a green card but they can't apply for it from within the US but as the minute they leave they get a 10-year re-entry bar.

The last guy to grant amnesty to the undocumented was Reagan in 1986, and he was, last I checked, a Republican.

At some point you've gotta stop blaming the other guy.

Democrats are not the party of immigration, legal or illegal.

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#97

Post by saiya-jin » Sat, Sep 19, 2020, 5:01 PM UTC

pftf wrote: post #80

sandworm101 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats the problem with democracy: the people own the mistakes of those they elect. Dont like what they do? Vote them out of office. Arrest them. Jail them. If the system fails, fix the system.

Voting doesn't work for the most important issues, where human rights are being severely violated. It took a civil war for the end of slavery to begin in the US. It took decades of terrorism for the Irish to stop being as subjugated by the British in Northern Ireland. And so on. History indicates that what you really need in the US right now is some violent, direct action against those committing human rights atrocit…

Take an inspiration from countries that get proper democracy right - like Switzerland. You can have public vote on anything, just gather enough signatures and it will happen. Result will be binding to government, whatever it means.

This of course relies on population to be at least slightly smart and not dumb herd of easy to manipulate sheeps, but that's a basic premise of democracy in general.

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#98

Post by dencodev » Sat, Sep 19, 2020, 5:06 PM UTC

Fnoord wrote: post #66

mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #40

A lot of comments are (rightfully) condemning American atrocity, but let’s not lose sight that it is defense for Assange as well. His actions clearly came with the moral imperative of whistleblowing - even just this one example shows the humanitarian crimes that would go unrevealed if the leaked documents weren’t published. There’s just no way to pretend like Assange caused harm or violated law - whistleblowing is no…

The problem I have with him is that his massive leaks were politically motivated. The helicopter who shot journalists, that movie was genuine, and a proper leak. All the diplomatic cables being leaked? Clinton's e-mails? I don't believe all of that was in the public interest. He fell in the trap of making it political, us vs them (why he went in bed with the Russians), and disregarding operational safety.

You don't think it's in the public's interest to know that one of the two parties of our broken two party system is explicitly subverting a democratic process to get "their person" nominated? Given that getting nominated to one of the two parties is the only viable way to get elected, anything that compromises the integrity of the nomination process is frankly more important than the final voting process.

>why he went in bed with the Russians

This is unsubstantiated propaganda.

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#99

Post by dash2 » Sat, Sep 19, 2020, 5:09 PM UTC

This is your regular reminder that Russian interference in the US election of 2016 took the form of discouraging Democrats to vote by telling them that both parties were just the same. So, when Hacker News is suddenly full of topics like this, with commenters earnestly agreeing with each other that both parties are just the same and nothing will ever change, it’s worth being a little skeptical.

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#100

Post by boomboomsubban » Sat, Sep 19, 2020, 5:10 PM UTC

GOONIMMUNE wrote: post #45

leephillips wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In practice, human rights do take a back seat to identity politics. One of the most widespread forms of torture in the world, female genital mutilation, is out of bounds even for criticism, in the eyes of the typical person of the “left” in the U.S., and many Western European countries, today. Those who object to this barbarism, inflicted upon millions of girls every year, are actually, somehow, called “racists” for…

As a leftist myself, I can't recall ever talking to another leftist who supported female genital mutilation, or called someone a racist for criticizing it. I think you're talking out your butt

They've developed a false argument. Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a vocal critic of female genital mutilation, but many of her other positions are islamophobic. Positions like "we are at war with Islam and it must be defeated."

In reality, I can both oppose female genital mutilation and consider Ayaan Hirsi Ali racist.