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Don’t bail out the cruise industry

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Re: Don’t bail out the cruise industry

#141

Post by omgwtfbbqhihihi »

bmn__ wrote: post #129
toyg wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These days it’s basically impossible to “ethically” eat anything , unless you have your own patch of land and can be bothered to grow vegetables.

Only if eating ethically is defined binary, not on a gradient. A huge portion of harm can be reduced/prevented with only a little effort. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.

> "Don't let perfect be the enemy of good. "

Battle cry of the conservative party lately. This quote has its place but not in the context of this conversation.

Re: Don’t bail out the cruise industry

#142

Post by lkramer »

simonh wrote: post #118
edejong wrote: post #14

The cruise industry is one of the most polluting and damaging industries in the world. It ruins cities worldwide. Their ships are petri-dishes for disease, spreading it directly into our vital cities. They are blocking perfect vistas of the sea. They are ruining local sea life and are spreading non-native species. Their exhaust fumes are extremely detrimental to local air quality in cities. The swarms of tourists are…

I think you're being a bit naive. All the ships will still exist. All that will happen is that investors will snap up the ships and 'brands' at bargain prices, set up new cruise companies and the ships will be back in business in a matter of a few months, probably with the same crews and the same company names. The only thing that will change is the ownership.

Hopefully if the shareholders loose a lot of money this way, they will demand better governance of the next company that is set up. This, at least, is how it _should_ work.

Re: Don’t bail out the cruise industry

#144

Post by pmiller2 »

willis936 wrote: post #123
pmiller2 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to quantify your first sentence, one single cruise ship emits the same amount of pollution as 1 million cars [0]. And, one cruise line emits more pollution every year than ALL the cars in Europe [1]. They should not just be allowed to go bust; they should be forced out of business. --- [0]: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-wednesday... [1]: https://www.transportenvironment.org/press/luxury-crui…

This is often quoted and misleading. It doesn’t emit a million times more pollution than a car across the board, it emits a million times more sulphur oxide than a car. Now sulphur oxide is nasty stuff, and regulated out of vehicle emissions for good reason. Fuel conditioning and catalytic convertors take care of this. But those things add cost, and why would a cruise ship company do it if they are not compelled lega…

Not only sulphur oxides, particulates as well (see my first quoted link). Particulate matter from combustion is extremely nasty. These floating petri dishes choke everything in their path.

> But those things add cost, and why would a cruise ship company do it if they are not compelled legally and their customers don’t mind?

Because their owners give a shit about the world they're leaving to their children?

Oh, well, I suppose they don't, then, do they?

Re: Don’t bail out the cruise industry

#145

Post by viraptor »

kolleykibber wrote: post #112
edejong wrote: post #14

The cruise industry is one of the most polluting and damaging industries in the world. It ruins cities worldwide. Their ships are petri-dishes for disease, spreading it directly into our vital cities. They are blocking perfect vistas of the sea. They are ruining local sea life and are spreading non-native species. Their exhaust fumes are extremely detrimental to local air quality in cities. The swarms of tourists are…

To list a few positives. Europe maybe not, but places like Honduras would be worse off without them. The industry and shipyards are advancing technology in ways that other industries do not. New ships use LNG, batteries and renewables. A carbon neutral cruise ship is not too far away. The intensive childcare offered allows parents who cannot otherwise get such services to relax. Pixar's Wall-e was prescient in that m…

> A carbon neutral cruise ship is not too far away.

Have you got some good links? This would be amazing, but sounds extremely unlikely.

Re: Don’t bail out the cruise industry

#146

Post by retSava »

WalterBright wrote: post #26

I went on a cruise ship once. Was very bored. I was so bored I tried to wangle a tour of the engine room (after all, I'm an engineer) but no way said the captain. The food was nice. The captain avoided a big storm. I figured if I ever went on a cruise again it would be an a much smaller boat. After all, who doesn't want an oar thrust in their hands and have someone yell "ramming speed!" at them? "We keep you alive to…

Must say your comment sounds quite poetic to me.

Sorry for OT/meta.

Re: Don’t bail out the cruise industry

#147

Post by jddj »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #125
CaptArmchair wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a local living in such a hotspot: this exactly is a concern our municipal council is trying to balance. Cruise ships unload hordes of tourists who are then shepherded through the commercial center of town for a couple of hours. You'd think that's a good thing. It's not. They don't go to restaurants for a full meal, they don't visit venues or do any activities. It's literally drop 'n shop. Meanwhile, they crowd the…

As someone who spent a great deal of my life living and working in a tourism economy I am not shedding a single tear over cruise ships undercutting local providers of food/shelter. With traditional brick'n'mortar tourism the people who fleece the tourists make bank. Then the people who fleece the people who fleece the tourists take their cut. The landlord, the plumber, the garbage collection company, everything inclu…

If we take that the liquor store that tourists shop in is the same liquor store/cafe/plumber that the locals use, then aren't those several layers of "fleecing" just..the regular economic activity for the area?

I can't imagine anyone ever thinking, "gee, good thing the cruise ships dock in Barcelona, otherwise the prices at Carrefour and the supermercados would go back to being astronomical and the garbage collection services would be able to take full advantage of us again"

Re: Don’t bail out the cruise industry

#148

Post by willis936 »

pmiller2 wrote: post #144
willis936 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is often quoted and misleading. It doesn’t emit a million times more pollution than a car across the board, it emits a million times more sulphur oxide than a car. Now sulphur oxide is nasty stuff, and regulated out of vehicle emissions for good reason. Fuel conditioning and catalytic convertors take care of this. But those things add cost, and why would a cruise ship company do it if they are not compelled lega…

Not only sulphur oxides, particulates as well (see my first quoted link). Particulate matter from combustion is extremely nasty. These floating petri dishes choke everything in their path. > But those things add cost, and why would a cruise ship company do it if they are not compelled legally and their customers don’t mind? Because their owners give a shit about the world they're leaving to their children? Oh, well,…

Companies do not exhibit humanity and in many cases are legally beholden to maximize profits. Regulation cannot afford to fail with contemporary companies like it does with individuals. Individuals have humanity to fall back on in most cases.

Also, I wanted to open with the pollution point first because most people associate "pollution" with "CO2 emission" and a cruise ship certainly does not produce a million times more CO2 than a car. Because of this, I feel that it's important to say specific pollutants.

Re: Don’t bail out the cruise industry

#149

Post by bryanrasmussen »

ftvy wrote: post #121
bradleyjg wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The demand for cruises is not going to go away. In that case why the need for a bailout? If they are viable businesses either as is or after reorganization in bankruptcy, then what’s the issue that needs solving by the government? That the very rich owners and lenders lost money and wish they hadn’t?

You could say the same thing about airlines, but no one is arguing about whether airlines are a necessary component of the economy. I don't support a bailout for cruise lines, but I also don't support a bailout for airlines or any industry. This pandemic crisis is being exploited on all fronts, and the first thing that everyone is going for is money. There is a lot of FUD being spread around as cause to bailout speci…

>You could say the same thing about airlines, but no one is arguing about whether airlines are a necessary component of the economy.

I don't understand - do you mean that airlines are not necessary components of the economy or that they are. And do you mean that cruise ships are or are not necessary components of the economy.

If airlines are necessary and cruise ships are not then it might follow that you should bail out one without bailing out the other.

Re: Don’t bail out the cruise industry

#150

Post by gotanothermate »

omgwtfbbqhihihi wrote: post #141
bmn__ wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if eating ethically is defined binary, not on a gradient. A huge portion of harm can be reduced/prevented with only a little effort. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.

> "Don't let perfect be the enemy of good. " Battle cry of the conservative party lately. This quote has its place but not in the context of this conversation.

That's a pretty good battle cry. Was that meant to be a jab?
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