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Don’t bail out the cruise industry

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Re: Don’t bail out the cruise industry

#121

Post by ftvy »

bradleyjg wrote: post #114
kolleykibber wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To list a few positives. Europe maybe not, but places like Honduras would be worse off without them. The industry and shipyards are advancing technology in ways that other industries do not. New ships use LNG, batteries and renewables. A carbon neutral cruise ship is not too far away. The intensive childcare offered allows parents who cannot otherwise get such services to relax. Pixar's Wall-e was prescient in that m…

> The demand for cruises is not going to go away. In that case why the need for a bailout? If they are viable businesses either as is or after reorganization in bankruptcy, then what’s the issue that needs solving by the government? That the very rich owners and lenders lost money and wish they hadn’t?

You could say the same thing about airlines, but no one is arguing about whether airlines are a necessary component of the economy.

I don't support a bailout for cruise lines, but I also don't support a bailout for airlines or any industry.

This pandemic crisis is being exploited on all fronts, and the first thing that everyone is going for is money. There is a lot of FUD being spread around as cause to bailout special interests, and that's a short term solution for a long term problem. It will only make things worse and more difficult in the end to correct the current problems at hand.

The focus shouldn't be on where to be spending money right now. The focus should be on developing proper procedures that at best prevents the next pandemic or at worst controls and minimizes its effect.

Re: Don’t bail out the cruise industry

#122

Post by nerdponx »

simonh wrote: post #118
edejong wrote: post #14

The cruise industry is one of the most polluting and damaging industries in the world. It ruins cities worldwide. Their ships are petri-dishes for disease, spreading it directly into our vital cities. They are blocking perfect vistas of the sea. They are ruining local sea life and are spreading non-native species. Their exhaust fumes are extremely detrimental to local air quality in cities. The swarms of tourists are…

I think you're being a bit naive. All the ships will still exist. All that will happen is that investors will snap up the ships and 'brands' at bargain prices, set up new cruise companies and the ships will be back in business in a matter of a few months, probably with the same crews and the same company names. The only thing that will change is the ownership.

All the more reason not to bail them out. Let the market do its thing.

Re: Don’t bail out the cruise industry

#123

Post by willis936 »

pmiller2 wrote: post #113
edejong wrote: post #14

The cruise industry is one of the most polluting and damaging industries in the world. It ruins cities worldwide. Their ships are petri-dishes for disease, spreading it directly into our vital cities. They are blocking perfect vistas of the sea. They are ruining local sea life and are spreading non-native species. Their exhaust fumes are extremely detrimental to local air quality in cities. The swarms of tourists are…

Just to quantify your first sentence, one single cruise ship emits the same amount of pollution as 1 million cars [0]. And, one cruise line emits more pollution every year than ALL the cars in Europe [1]. They should not just be allowed to go bust; they should be forced out of business. --- [0]: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-wednesday... [1]: https://www.transportenvironment.org/press/luxury-crui…

This is often quoted and misleading. It doesn’t emit a million times more pollution than a car across the board, it emits a million times more sulphur oxide than a car.

Now sulphur oxide is nasty stuff, and regulated out of vehicle emissions for good reason. Fuel conditioning and catalytic convertors take care of this. But those things add cost, and why would a cruise ship company do it if they are not compelled legally and their customers don’t mind?

I don’t feel bad for giving my friends who go on cruises a hard time over this. Most will say they simply do not care about the environment. They are not immediately threatening their own immediate habitat. These are the people who go on cruises. The fact that the cruise industry exists is a sad mark on humanity.

https://www.abctourism.org/cruise-ship-pollution

Re: Don’t bail out the cruise industry

#124

Post by missedthecue »

christophilus wrote: post #99
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're likely not going to go bust though; they have a fuckton of money, at worst the ships are going to be docked for a while until this blows over. They won't make money, but they're not going to go bust. I think this is a major problem with a lot of businesses; they consider time not spent earning money as loss, instead of just a period with less income. And I think it's the responsibility of ALL businesses to ke…

I’ve looked at their finances. A few very well may go bust. It’s incredible how many publicly traded companies are living paycheck to paycheck. I don’t like the idea of bailing out debt-laden, mismanaged companies. Let them go into bankruptcy and let a more competent group of people buy them and run them. This is doubly true for Boeing. Get those monkeys out of the executive positions.

Well I don't know why we're surprised when the federal government does what they can to make sure companies don't retain earrings. The Accumulated Earnings Tax

Re: Don’t bail out the cruise industry

#125

Post by dsfyu404ed »

CaptArmchair wrote: post #101
Der_Einzige wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You shouldn't be downvoted for high quality posts like this. You're absolutely right that most locals would prefer hotels - the economic contributions alone answer for the externalities that the OP was concerned about.

As a local living in such a hotspot: this exactly is a concern our municipal council is trying to balance. Cruise ships unload hordes of tourists who are then shepherded through the commercial center of town for a couple of hours. You'd think that's a good thing. It's not. They don't go to restaurants for a full meal, they don't visit venues or do any activities. It's literally drop 'n shop. Meanwhile, they crowd the…

As someone who spent a great deal of my life living and working in a tourism economy I am not shedding a single tear over cruise ships undercutting local providers of food/shelter.

With traditional brick'n'mortar tourism the people who fleece the tourists make bank. Then the people who fleece the people who fleece the tourists take their cut. The landlord, the plumber, the garbage collection company, everything including even the municipal government basically charges what the market will bear in order to get their slice of the pie.

Cruise ships piss off everyone who isn't running a tourist trap, T-shirt shop or cafe because they handle all the supporting industry so the people who normally fleece the people who fleece the tourists don't get their cut because the tourists don't have to stay in a hotel, visit a liquor store, etc, etc. in order to visit the beaches, the cafe's the shops, etc. because the cruise ship handles that.

Re: Don’t bail out the cruise industry

#126

Post by sauerbraten »

kolleykibber wrote: post #112
edejong wrote: post #14

The cruise industry is one of the most polluting and damaging industries in the world. It ruins cities worldwide. Their ships are petri-dishes for disease, spreading it directly into our vital cities. They are blocking perfect vistas of the sea. They are ruining local sea life and are spreading non-native species. Their exhaust fumes are extremely detrimental to local air quality in cities. The swarms of tourists are…

To list a few positives. Europe maybe not, but places like Honduras would be worse off without them. The industry and shipyards are advancing technology in ways that other industries do not. New ships use LNG, batteries and renewables. A carbon neutral cruise ship is not too far away. The intensive childcare offered allows parents who cannot otherwise get such services to relax. Pixar's Wall-e was prescient in that m…

I don't know much about this, but I assume the advances in renewables and carbon neutral ships is driven mostly by regulation aimed to reduce pollution. Can we really give the cruise companies a lot of credit for that?

> The demand for cruises is not going to go away.

Good, then there will still be cruise ships after the industry felt the consequences, and perhaps they will have learned something.

Re: Don’t bail out the cruise industry

#127

Post by troydavis »

Other threads debate the merits of cruises and/or bailouts, but this specific idea has a unique challenge: there may not be a viable market for cruises until COVID is at least treatable, if not preventable. The CDC’s guidance is to “defer all cruise travel worldwide”[1] and that may not change until treatment exists - particularly for those over 50-60. 51% of 2019 passengers were over 50[2].

Cruise ships manage to contain norovirus[3], but we’ve seen how different the consequences are when NCoV is present on a cruise ship.

[1]: https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/travel/notices/warning/coronavirus-cru... [2]: https://www.cruise1st.co.uk/blog/cruise-holidays/how-old-is-... [3]: https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/vsp/pub/norovirus/norovirus.htm

Re: Don’t bail out the cruise industry

#128

Post by missedthecue »

sjg007 wrote: post #86
aguyfromnb wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They're likely not going to go bust though; they have a fuckton of money, at worst the ships are going to be docked for a while until this blows over. Why do people get this impression a pandemic, combined with an unprecedented economic drawdown, combined with one of the most vitriolic political climates we've ever seen is just going to "blow over", and in 6 months we'll be going along like nothing ever happened? C…

Cruise lines can borrow money at rock bottom interest rates. We do not need to bail them out. They don't even pay US taxes.

Royal Caribbean is borrowing at 6-7% according to a quick Google. And that is in good times.

No reason to believe they could attract better terms at a time like this

Re: Don’t bail out the cruise industry

#129

Post by bmn__ »

toyg wrote: post #70
ornornor wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You also forget to mention the magic pipes that let ships dump water polluted with oil directly into the sea so they don’t have to pay at ports for proper disposal. Outlaw ocean is an eye opening book (and a great read) about how lawless the sea is, how slavery is still very very real out there, and how it’s virtually impossible to keep eating fish once you know what’s going on (both in terms of human trafficking and…

These days it’s basically impossible to “ethically” eat anything , unless you have your own patch of land and can be bothered to grow vegetables.

Only if eating ethically is defined binary, not on a gradient.

A huge portion of harm can be reduced/prevented with only a little effort. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.

Re: Don’t bail out the cruise industry

#130

Post by xiphias2 »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #51
xiphias2 wrote: post #12

Tourists from cruise ships destroy nice vacactions. Many hundreds of people come on the streets in groups, go throught the streets loudly and fast to take photos, than go back to the ship. People who really go to these places and spend money for staying and try to blend in to have a peaceful vacation can't.

Interestingly, the city of Amsterdam is trying to reduce the amount of tourists they get; one measure they've taken is closing the cruise ship port close to the city center.

That's great!

I have seen videos of how they're also reducing the usage of cars to make it a walkable/bicyclable city, I would love to see Amsterdam some time (probably not this year due to coronavirus though :( )

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