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Don’t bail out the cruise industry

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Re: Don’t bail out the cruise industry

#61

Post by vidarh »

pas wrote: post #22
mulm wrote: post #5

I don’t think we should bail out any bigger industry without requiring them to create buffers for the next crisis. We bailed them out in 2008, that’s fair, but if they sent all their profit to their shareholders instead of preparing for the next crisis then let their share holders bail them out. I’m European though, so I may be more of a social democrat than most Americans.

There are different kinds of bail outs. The US bail outs that bought the bad stuff from the banks and slowly sold them off as the market allowed made a nominal profit. (TARP recovered funds totalling $441.7 billion from $426.4 billion invested, earning a $15.3 billion profit or an annualized rate of return of 0.6% and perhaps a loss when adjusted for inflation.) The other kind is what the central bank does, basically…

The other option is to have the bank in question issue more equity for the state to buy.

The Norwegian government for example still owns more than a third of the biggest Norwegian bank as a holdover from a much earlier financial crisis (1990), and decided not to sell down further as a strategic decision to prevent future meltdowns.

The UK similarly bought a lot of bank assets during the 2008 crisis.

Re: Don’t bail out the cruise industry

#63

Post by yellowapple »

busterarm wrote: post #11
atlasunshrugged wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's only true if you believe that there isn't some fundamental part of this business that is profitable and market forces won't eventually lead to new cruise companies popping back up in the future

In times of crisis, that's not what we care about, we care about uninterrupted supply chain. Yes, I agree the system should not be that fragile, but for now it is.

In this case, I'd say we'd be better off letting that fragility run its course.

Very few (if any) Americans depend on the existence of the cruise industry to make a living or otherwise survive in our society. For the ones who do, it'd be cheaper to give them individual "bailouts". Cruise ships contribute jack all to the national or global supply chain except as consumers of it; letting cruise lines fail means more capacity on that supply chain for things that actually do matter (especially in times of crisis).

Even bank bailouts have a better value proposition, and that's saying something.

Re: Don’t bail out the cruise industry

#64

Post by ornornor »

edejong wrote: post #14

The cruise industry is one of the most polluting and damaging industries in the world. It ruins cities worldwide. Their ships are petri-dishes for disease, spreading it directly into our vital cities. They are blocking perfect vistas of the sea. They are ruining local sea life and are spreading non-native species. Their exhaust fumes are extremely detrimental to local air quality in cities. The swarms of tourists are…

You also forget to mention the magic pipes that let ships dump water polluted with oil directly into the sea so they don’t have to pay at ports for proper disposal.

Outlaw ocean is an eye opening book (and a great read) about how lawless the sea is, how slavery is still very very real out there, and how it’s virtually impossible to keep eating fish once you know what’s going on (both in terms of human trafficking and in terms of quotas violation/fishing in U.N. “protected” natural reserves)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_pipe

https://www.theoutlawocean.com/

Re: Don’t bail out the cruise industry

#65

Post by aguyfromnb »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #47
edejong wrote: post #14

The cruise industry is one of the most polluting and damaging industries in the world. It ruins cities worldwide. Their ships are petri-dishes for disease, spreading it directly into our vital cities. They are blocking perfect vistas of the sea. They are ruining local sea life and are spreading non-native species. Their exhaust fumes are extremely detrimental to local air quality in cities. The swarms of tourists are…

They're likely not going to go bust though; they have a fuckton of money, at worst the ships are going to be docked for a while until this blows over. They won't make money, but they're not going to go bust. I think this is a major problem with a lot of businesses; they consider time not spent earning money as loss, instead of just a period with less income. And I think it's the responsibility of ALL businesses to ke…

>They're likely not going to go bust though; they have a fuckton of money, at worst the ships are going to be docked for a while until this blows over.

Why do people get this impression a pandemic, combined with an unprecedented economic drawdown, combined with one of the most vitriolic political climates we've ever seen is just going to "blow over", and in 6 months we'll be going along like nothing ever happened?

Covid19 might go away (or it might not, there's always that). But many things are going to change. Who's to say we don't now decide that cruise ships are a stupid idea, because they spread disease, pollute like crazy, don't pay taxes and need bailouts? Many industries disappear.

Re: Don’t bail out the cruise industry

#66

Post by fastball »

RivieraKid wrote: post #62

Why do bailouts at all instead of letting them go bankrupt? Bankruptcy doesn't mean that people lose their jobs, it means that investors / lenders lose money.

Because apparently we want to make sure investors don't suffer at the expense of the taxpayer / rest of the population.

Re: Don’t bail out the cruise industry

#69

Post by hannob »

I think there should be a much bigger discussion about bailouts. There currently seems to be a feeling that an industry that struggles deserves a bailout by default.

Why don't we have a discussion about which industry provides important services to society? And particularly how helpful it is likely to be in the larger crisis we have looming over us - climate change - and which won't go away? It seems like the absolute worst idea to bail out high carbon industries, and that's not just true for cruise ships, but also for airlines and many others.

Re: Don’t bail out the cruise industry

#70

Post by toyg »

ornornor wrote: post #64
edejong wrote: post #14

The cruise industry is one of the most polluting and damaging industries in the world. It ruins cities worldwide. Their ships are petri-dishes for disease, spreading it directly into our vital cities. They are blocking perfect vistas of the sea. They are ruining local sea life and are spreading non-native species. Their exhaust fumes are extremely detrimental to local air quality in cities. The swarms of tourists are…

You also forget to mention the magic pipes that let ships dump water polluted with oil directly into the sea so they don’t have to pay at ports for proper disposal. Outlaw ocean is an eye opening book (and a great read) about how lawless the sea is, how slavery is still very very real out there, and how it’s virtually impossible to keep eating fish once you know what’s going on (both in terms of human trafficking and…

These days it’s basically impossible to “ethically” eat anything, unless you have your own patch of land and can be bothered to grow vegetables.
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