China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced • Hacker News Board

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#141

Post by Kaveren » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 3:25 PM UTC

miohtama wrote: post #32

While China has a bad record in human rights, I suggest to apply a lot of source criticism what comes to "social credit system." Especially here in Hacker News comments where discussion is generally more intelligent. Here is more in-depth and fact based article about the topic: https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/11/16/chinas-orwellian-social...

> "and the admitted student who was erroneously denied his place at a university due to his father’s failure to pay back a bank loan."

It seems like you can strike "erroneously" from that sentence, since the source it cites doesn't imply it was a mistake at all.

Collective punishment is worth criticizing.

As per usual, when implementing some Orwellian scheme, there will be a crowd that states there's nothing to worry about, and that people are over-reacting, and that it's really not so bad after all.

I wonder what the social credit score of Chinese dissidents will look like.

[0] https://www.businessinsider.com/china-social-credit-affects-...

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#142

Post by glenneroo » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 3:25 PM UTC

omegabravo wrote: post #119

glenneroo wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do, however most of my recent Airbnbs rentals have started requesting (via attached info email and/or the info-book on premises) to wash the dishes, change/take off the bedding sheets and in a couple cases, to wipe specific areas down. It feels like renters are continually pushing the boundaries of what they can ask of guests/tenants.

How interesting, I just assumed everyone cleaned up after themselves. I always do the dishes and tidy any mess I may have left. I'll gladly remove the bedding if requested, that only takes a few seconds. Perhaps it's a cultural thing.

Considering that Airbnb is generally competing with hotels, which expect nothing of their guests, I tend to approach Airbnb with a similar mentality in regards to cleanliness, granted some of my stays were truly amazing homes where I took extra care to clean up after myself. But I'm far from being a slob and I actually really like doing dishes. It's mostly a matter of principle - why should I pay a cleaning fee and have to clean? This can be particularly frustrating when staying only 1-2 nights where the cleaning fee can be as high as renting for just 1 night.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#143

Post by oarsinsync » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 3:27 PM UTC

PavlovsCat wrote: post #122

PavlovsCat wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We will arrive at a moment of sufficent self-alienation where we can contemplate our own destruction [as a species] as in a static spectacle. -- Walter Benjamin So we're repeating the Nazis now, gladly, because that's easier than learning from those who made all that effort, saw and went through so much atrocities and suffering, to to learn from that, and to relay that to us, to impress the importance of it on us?…

Oh, so just downvoting, just censoring, just like killing people, is the "argument". Every click without a word proves my point without diminishing a word I said. Giving totalitarianism an inch, rationalizing obedience to it for just one minute, has these results. Quod erat demonstrandum.

I upvoted your original post as I think it's well written and adds value to the discussion. I downvoted your response to yourself because it adds nothing of value.

Same can be said for this post, I suppose, depending on perspective shrug

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#144

Post by baobrain » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 3:27 PM UTC

skrebbel wrote: post #98

706f6f70 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because not all societies enshrine individual freedom as their primary value. China has historically valued orderliness, collective well-being, and personal sacrifice. This sucks from a Western perspective, but it also means that a great many of the problems the West faces will never manifest in China. There are very few absolute wrongs in the world and it's not clear that this would be one of them.

> orderliness, collective well-being, and personal sacrifice I don't know, most Chinese people I've met are at least as selfish as the average Westerner, often more (and let's not even begin about the stereotypical "I don't care about anything" 60 year old Chinese tourist). I'm no expert, but while surely many Chinese rulers have emphasized these values, I'm not convinced that the population ever cared much about the…

I'm not sure how bringing up personal experiences and racial stereotypes contributes to any conversation, especially when it is about the entire population of China (1.4 billion), its culture, and its history.

I highly recommend reading about the mandate of heaven[0]. While not particularly relevant anymore, it is important context to the cultural attitudes of your average Chinese citizen.

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandate_of_Heaven

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#145

Post by crankylinuxuser » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 3:28 PM UTC

thatfrenchguy wrote: post #101

bitexploder wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think there is much equivalency here. The credit system is a pain, but it is also very simple to have good credit. Anyone, even someone with little money can have good credit. Even if you have medical debt you can maintain your credit rating. People may not know how to do it, but it isn’t too hard. The privacy aspects of it suck, but it just isn’t that dystopian and it’s usage is relatively narrow in society.…

> The credit system is a pain, but it is also very simple to have good credit. If you’re rich.

But if you're not rich, "You're just Lazy".

Because everyone who isn't a millionaire, is just an embarrassed pre-millionaire.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#146

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 3:29 PM UTC

dnomad wrote: post #140

Hilarious. I wasn't even done with the comment and it's already being rapidly downvoted. The total lack of intellectual integrity on HN is a sight to behold. It's really funny to watch the advocates of free speech and discussion rapidly downvote anything that contradicts their ideology.

[deleted]

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#147

Post by paganel » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 3:29 PM UTC

wozmirek wrote: post #128

While I'm terrified by the system, I do remember watching a BBC (I think?) report on this. There was a young Chinese woman there, who felt safer. This made me think - what would women - and women, not the young men (me being one) choose when given a choice of the social credit system or being able to walk around the city safe(r)? Quite general question, yet I do believe they would choose the latter; and I wouldn't bl…

"Feeling safer" has almost nothing to do with the Government watching you and it's almost entirely caused by the local social norms. Case in point and to partly answer your question: I have a woman colleague who has recently moved to London from Bucharest. She told me that while living in Bucharest she had no issue at all going back home alone at 2 or 3 in the morning, while in London she avoids going out all by herself after 8 PM, because she does not feel safe.

Doesn't matter that London is one of the most camera-surveilled cities in the "Western" world while Bucharest has almost no cameras, all it matters is that there are more people in London ready to physically and verbally harass a person walking on the street all by her/himself compared to a city like Bucharest. I have no idea on how one would change those social norms, I'm just saying that adding cameras hasn't solved the issue and will probably not solve it.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#148

Post by Kaveren » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 3:31 PM UTC

dnomad wrote: post #132

skrebbel wrote: post #113

I'm disgusted by the comments in this thread that go "culture!", "tradition!", "philosophy!" to explain why this really isn't that much of a problem. So because Chinese rulers have oppressed and mistreated their people for so long that their methods have become ingrained in the national psyche, it's somehow more OK? George Orwell predicted that "If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human f…

> China is unique in that it's been all about oppressing and abusing the population as heavily as possible, without pause, ever since the first emperors gave the country its foreign name. This is such complete nonsense. I think it's hilarious how totally and completely misguided about China that Westerners, and Americans in particular, actually are. It boggles the belief just how much complete nonsense is spouted her…

> "Citizens with access to benefits respond more favorably"

Of course they do. These sorts of systems always offer a sizable portion of the population benefits, that's how they gain popular support. This doesn't mean that they aren't terrible ideas.

You have to consider how a government affects the people who disapprove of the government, who are not part of a majority, who are not conformists.

Many people don't think this is worth doing. But the sentiment that only the conformist majority matters has led to unspeakable atrocities throughout history, and continues to even in the present day across the world.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#149

Post by bitexploder » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 3:35 PM UTC

thatfrenchguy wrote: post #101

bitexploder wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think there is much equivalency here. The credit system is a pain, but it is also very simple to have good credit. Anyone, even someone with little money can have good credit. Even if you have medical debt you can maintain your credit rating. People may not know how to do it, but it isn’t too hard. The privacy aspects of it suck, but it just isn’t that dystopian and it’s usage is relatively narrow in society.…

> The credit system is a pain, but it is also very simple to have good credit. If you’re rich.

Credit rating has nothing to do with how much money you have. I helped my sister who makes minimum wage move 100k medical debt off her credit record, establish a secured credit card, and taught her how to pay bills on time and negotiate with debt owners and creditors so she never gets any debt reported to credit agencies. All with her own very limited money. She moved her score from 400s to 700s over about 3 years. All credit rating shows is (1) you don’t take out more than you can afford and (2) you are willing to service the debts you have to the limits you can afford. Even with 700-800 credit if you don’t have much earning power you won’t get a big loan, but you will get good rates on what you can afford.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#150

Post by bytematic » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 3:35 PM UTC

wozmirek wrote: post #128

While I'm terrified by the system, I do remember watching a BBC (I think?) report on this. There was a young Chinese woman there, who felt safer. This made me think - what would women - and women, not the young men (me being one) choose when given a choice of the social credit system or being able to walk around the city safe(r)? Quite general question, yet I do believe they would choose the latter; and I wouldn't bl…

Well they had no credit system before so it was awful to get any sort of loan or expect it to be paid back. Lots of chinese people are for this policy.