Spain Fines Facebook Over Tracking Users Without Consent • Hacker News Board

Re: Spain Fines Facebook Over Tracking Users Without Consent

#141

Post by parthdesai » Fri, Sep 15, 2017, 1:42 PM UTC

justlearning123 wrote: post #100

donatj wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand people's objections. Can you clarify? As someone who was too poor to afford internet for years, I would have adored such a deal. It would have greatly improved my standard of living, and to me I feel like the objections come from people with no understanding of what poverty is like. It really feels like looking a gift horse in the mouth; I feel like the benefits of free internet for the poor far ou…

A better alternative will be for the government to provide free internet to the poor (like they do with food) than companies creating walled spaces.

Or, you know if facebook really cared, they should have provided 1gb for free or something like that.

Re: Spain Fines Facebook Over Tracking Users Without Consent

#142

Post by markyuckerberg » Fri, Sep 15, 2017, 1:56 PM UTC

jm6 wrote: post #122

t1o5 wrote: post #13

Facebook tried to pull a similar gimmick in India called "Free Basics". It was dealt with criticism and the regulatory authority in India was smart enough to reject the proposal. Reliance, one of the sheepskin corporation in India wanted to embrace Free Basics with Facebook but could not. Now Reliance is trying a similar act with "Jio" cellphones. Its a good thing that many countries are realizing that US based monop…

Ignorance at it's finest. Unlike the US the Indian telecom sector has cut throat competition, which is why data and call rates are at global lows. Even so they don't have the resources to connect all of India. The math doesn't add up. Facebook Basics would have provided said resources. A robotic bunch of Indians influenced by the Net Neutrality hoopla developed and targeted at Monopoly Telecom in the US blindly appli…

So you are simultaneously saying that the cut throat competition of the telco sector is keeping the data and call rates at global lows (a good thing), and saying that we need not have the same competition when the infrastructure for rural India is built out? If competition acts the way it normally does, someone is certainly going to figure out how to connect rural India in an economically viable way and profit immensely.

Or the mathematics won't pan out, and the company dies. And the government will probably step in to fill the breach. And it will probably do an awful job (remember the mathematics never panned out?)

Both of these are good outcomes. Compare this to handing over the control of such vital infrastructure to a megacorp which has a consistent track record of violating the trust of everyone - the users (random privacy rule changes), the advertisers (fake video views), those they acquire (e.g. the comedy show called WhatsApp ads), the jurisdictions they operate in (arbitrary censorship of content to make sure they kowtow to the public flavor du jour) and last but not least the legal system (claiming that they cannot/will not infer a WhatsApp user profile based on FB user profile knowing the pitifully tiny effect of the punitive damages).

With such a track record, it is a surprise that they even have the temerity to still approach governments around the world to propose FreeBasics.

Re: Spain Fines Facebook Over Tracking Users Without Consent

#143

Post by dilemma » Fri, Sep 15, 2017, 2:51 PM UTC

petre wrote: post #95

dilemma wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US economy was founded on tariffs. No such thing as a free market in North America. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariffs_in_United_States_histo...

Tariffs in cars in a big market such as the US encourage foreign car companies to set up locally or at least in a NAFTA member country.

So?

Re: Spain Fines Facebook Over Tracking Users Without Consent

#144

Post by matt4077 » Fri, Sep 15, 2017, 3:28 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #24

jacquesm wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Revocation of corporate charter is the equivalent of the death penalty for a corporation.

Doesn't happen often (at all?) and even if it did, what stops the company's leadership from starting a new, identical company with a identical board, employee list, etc. the next second?

It doesn't really happen. What does happen is companies going out of business from being unable to pay fines and/or liabilities to harmed parties.

There are different rules in each country around eligibility to serve in certain company functions, but those will usually only come into play after an individual's conviction for a crime committed in a business context. There are one and a half I've heard of actually happening in the real world: (1) (frequently) you'll be barred from serving as CEO or starting a corporation after a conviction for criminal bankruptcy, and (2) board-level positions for banks have rather strict requirements that would preclude most people with recent convictions for serious crimes.

I've only heard of one case of (2) being relevant, which was the possibility of Deutsche Bank's CEO having to resign after a plea deal for one of their many scandals.

Re: Spain Fines Facebook Over Tracking Users Without Consent

#145

Post by matt4077 » Fri, Sep 15, 2017, 3:32 PM UTC

Mahn wrote: post #2

I don't have anything against regulations and fines to keep monopolistic companies in check, but that being said, as an European, I can't help but feel a little appalled that there's so much focus on this and so little on actually creating European Googles and Facebooks.

Don't fall into trap of seeing this as being motivated by economic nationalism.

That's a claim frequently made in regards to EU antitrust actions, and it is easily disproven by the data that shows US companies being underrepresented in terms of levied fines compared to their revenues in the EU.

Any European competitor would be subject to the same sort of fine if they behaved similarly.

Re: Spain Fines Facebook Over Tracking Users Without Consent

#146

Post by thecrazyone » Fri, Sep 15, 2017, 3:42 PM UTC

wbl wrote: post #46

Joe-Z wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>To paint a less rosy picture... I think different companies, although they may be monopolies in their own right, spread out over multiple countries is still preferable to a global monopoly. Not just because of data collection, also regarding keeping tech know-how locally for example.

It really isn't. Competition globally is better for consumers. Imagine if you had to drive only US cars to keep automotive knowledge local.

thank you for espousing the free markets ideology (I concur with you). I don't know why but these days, I feel HN also has become protectionist (where I'd have expected free marketeers).

Perhaps this is out of context, but I wonder if Trump is a symptom of this protectionism or if they're unrelated

Re: Spain Fines Facebook Over Tracking Users Without Consent

#147

Post by matt4077 » Fri, Sep 15, 2017, 3:44 PM UTC

jondubois wrote: post #109

I think this is a good step. EU countries should start fining and taxing these US tech companies heavily to force them out of business in the EU and leave room for local EU competitors. The EU should try to be more like China.

I'm sorry but that's bullshit. Almost by definition, whatever replacements would be created would be inferior to the banned originals.

If you start using fines and taxes as instruments of protectionism, you've also become a country no longer ruled by laws, but by the arbitrary whims of whoever is in power.

I already spend too much time online defending (for example) the EU's antitrust policy against accusations of nationalism. If that sort of thing really did happen, it would be the start of a trade war. And nobody is interested in a trade war, except those whose thinking is impaired by some rather anachronistic xenophobia.

Specifically for Facebook: about 40% of my friends are outside the EU. I wouldn't create an account on any social network that they are not on.

Re: Spain Fines Facebook Over Tracking Users Without Consent

#148

Post by thecrazyone » Fri, Sep 15, 2017, 3:44 PM UTC

krageon wrote: post #115

wbl wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really isn't. Competition globally is better for consumers. Imagine if you had to drive only US cars to keep automotive knowledge local.

What Facebook (or for that matter Google) does is not competition. They're far too large to really compete with when you're getting up and running. Everything that even gets close to something they do or might want to do gets bought out. I can't imagine anyone thinks such a situation is in the best interest of the user.

When they buy other companies, note:

1) It's a voluntary transaction and is not compulsory

2) They precisely buy because it would be harder to build it from scratch. Which refutes your claim that Google or FB can't be competed against.

edit: formatting

Re: Spain Fines Facebook Over Tracking Users Without Consent

#149

Post by losteric » Fri, Sep 15, 2017, 3:48 PM UTC

snovv_crash wrote: post #103

losteric wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This image is really the best metaphor for our current political climate: https://imgur.com/TxJ7iEi Mass media just magnifies the angry 1%, creating mountains out of molehills. eg the Bay Area has maybe 100 BLM/Antifa instigators total. Every police incident involves that same small group of people, but the media hypes up the number of incidents. Some group postures to look significant, the media obliges to get ad re…

> eg the Bay Area has maybe 100 BLM/Antifa instigators total. Yes, but how many who agree with them, but have day jobs they need to go to? I can assure you that my childhood friend was not joining the BLM protests, but he was still calling for Nazis to try to march in Oakland.

I know. My point is that is largely meaningless

* "Racists march in racist territory to intimidate people elsewhere" * "People elsewhere goad the weak cowardly racists"

Uh, obviously? I'd be surprised if that didn't happen.

Racism is not popular. Oakland isn't alone, I have heard the same sentiment from New Yorkers, Seattleites, Houston; urban areas do not tolerate that kind of anti-American discrimination.

Re: Spain Fines Facebook Over Tracking Users Without Consent

#150

Post by matt4077 » Fri, Sep 15, 2017, 3:51 PM UTC

otherme1 wrote: post #27

Make no mistake: this is a form of taxation. Our (i'm spanish) minister of economy has been very imaginative in the last 4 years to find new sources of revenue.

Please don't spread these conspiracy theories.

As just one of many arguments against: Such decisions are subject to judicial reviews (i. e. Facebook can sue). Spanish judges are just as independent from the executive as they are in most countries, once they are appointed. What motivation would these judges have to undermine the rule of law (something they studied and have worked in their whole life), when they can't be pressured, nor are they recipients of any part of such fines?

It gets even harder to think of a possible motivation when you realise that any court rulings could be appealed in European courts, completely out of the sphere of influence of the Spanish government.