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All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving Hardware

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Re: All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving Hardware

#141

Post by lathiat »

luma wrote: post #91

I think what people are missing here is an understanding of how these systems are tested and deployed at scale. While I have no involvement with Tesla I do have first-hand knowledge of similar programs at tier 1 automotive suppliers. The suppliers provide (or are looking to provide) an electronics suite to car manufacturers. The car manufacturers want the system to be safe lest they be sued out of existence. One part…

I have to admit, while on some ways it seems like "Cheating".. I feel like having this real world data is in reality much safer than training artificially. Will include all sorts of varying areas and stupidity of drivers.

Re: All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving Hardware

#142

Post by Klathmon »

timdorr wrote: post #129
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until it's tested in court, the legality of that restriction is highly questionable. (Which is not to say that you can ignore it with impunity. If you don't have the money for a multi-year lawsuit against a billionaire, you might not want to violate it.) Presuming that such "EULAs for cars" are not legally binding, the next step will be cars that simply will not do the "forbidden" action, because their software detec…

It's different because the self-driving doesn't entirely happen within the vehicle. Tesla maintains a road database to base driving decisions off of and it's assumed you obtain that information from the network. > Initially, the vehicle fleet will take no action except to note the position of road signs, bridges and other stationary objects, mapping the world according to radar. The car computer will then silently co…

It might be within their rights, but still a big issue and something that IMO shouldn't be within their rights.

I can understand (and fully agree with) limiting usage that can hurt them (like you cant use their object db in your own non-tesla car, and you can't use it as free storage for images or something), but limiting how you USE the system in a way that it's meant to be used?

I've only ever seen this kind of stuff in shitty B2B programs, and even there it was a big enough issue to deter us. This is a big deal and could really open the floodgates to some really shitty practices.

Re: All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving Hardware

#143

Post by Someone »

detaro wrote: post #95
PacketPaul wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pilot here. Airplanes have autopilot. While on autopilot you are still expected to be monitoring the flight and take control at a moments notice. Autopilot does not allow the pilot to take a nap or go in the back and party with the flight attendants. Autopilot is the correct term. I'm tired of always having to cater to the lowest common denominator.

Curious, what is "take control at a moments notice" in seconds? From what I've read about aviation, situations where really fast, let's say It seems like an airliner flying at altitude has quite large safety margins compared to a car on a highway.

I wouldn't call it larger safety margins. Many if not most of the cases where car drivers should take action are survivable if they don't; that's different for pilots in airplanes.

Pilots typically have more time to react, though (astronauts lie even further away along this axis; in cases where astronauts can take action to save their lives, they typically have even more time, but also, in many cases, there's no action that will save them)

As to the "take control at a moments notice": that's where the problem lies.

The arguments in "Ironies of Automation" (https://www.ise.ncsu.edu/nsf_itr/794B/papers/Bainbridge_1983...) such as "By taking away the easy parts of his task, automation can make the difficult parts of the human operator's task more difficult" haven't lost any of their power in the 30+ years since it was published.

Because of that, I doubt the typical driver will be able to handle emergency situations, as it will require frequent training.

Re: All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving Hardware

#145

Post by oska »

thesimon wrote: post #70

If you go to the order page of the Model S, it says for the "Full Self-Driving Hardware": >Please note also that using a self-driving Tesla for car sharing and ride hailing for friends and family is fine, but doing so for revenue purposes will only be permissible on the Tesla Network, details of which will be released next year. Interesting decision.

Note that they say “using a self-driving Tesla”, not “using a Tesla”. Perhaps it means that they don't want you to use the Tesla in its self-driving mode for revenue purposes but it's still fine to use the Tesla for such purposes if you drive it without using the self-driving features.

Re: All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving Hardware

#146

Post by maratd »

Animats wrote: post #99

More cameras. Better sonars (very short range). Better radar processing, but apparently the same old single radar at bumper height. Still no windshield-height radar. No radar scanning in elevation. No LIDAR. That's a better, but still weak sensor suite. It's probably enough for freeway driving under good conditions. It's far below Google's sensor suite. Or Volvo's. Now they just have to write software smart enough to…

> That's a better, but still weak sensor suite.

All you have is two overlapping cameras with poor resolution and they let you behind the wheel, right?

This is a software and processing hardware problem only. Human beings drive OK for the most part and we don't have lidar/radar/sonar/etc.

With 8 cameras providing 360 vision and an advanced NVIDIA hardware suite, this problem is entirely solvable and this is a very reasonable solution to it.

Re: All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving Hardware

#147

Post by djsumdog »

Klathmon wrote: post #137
thesimon wrote: post #70

If you go to the order page of the Model S, it says for the "Full Self-Driving Hardware": >Please note also that using a self-driving Tesla for car sharing and ride hailing for friends and family is fine, but doing so for revenue purposes will only be permissible on the Tesla Network, details of which will be released next year. Interesting decision.

That's a really fucking shitty thing to do, and is gonna cause some pretty big waves IMO if they follow through with it. The issues with not being able to modify your own stuff is already really shitty, but its not something that the average Joe really can understand easily, and even less care about it. But not being able to USE your car for some things? That just screams easy headlines and it's a reason I might not…

The most interesting thing about self-driving vehicles is that there is a legitimate reason people should never be able to modify the firmware on their vehicles. The risks would be very high.

There is also the entire liability and planed obsolescent issues not being dealt with. Will Tesla support these cars forever? Will 10 year old models still get software updates?

Re: All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving Hardware

#148

Post by Klathmon »

djsumdog wrote: post #147
Klathmon wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a really fucking shitty thing to do, and is gonna cause some pretty big waves IMO if they follow through with it. The issues with not being able to modify your own stuff is already really shitty, but its not something that the average Joe really can understand easily, and even less care about it. But not being able to USE your car for some things? That just screams easy headlines and it's a reason I might not…

The most interesting thing about self-driving vehicles is that there is a legitimate reason people should never be able to modify the firmware on their vehicles. The risks would be very high. There is also the entire liability and planed obsolescent issues not being dealt with. Will Tesla support these cars forever? Will 10 year old models still get software updates?

I'm not sure I entirely agree with that.

Cars are already extremely risky to modify, but it is still possible (and it's even a protected consumer right). I can go out and accidentally cut the breaks on my own car while changing the tire, if it causes harm, we already have a system in place to deal with it.

Why should software be any different?

Re: All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving Hardware

#149

Post by jayjay71 »

maratd wrote: post #146
Animats wrote: post #99

More cameras. Better sonars (very short range). Better radar processing, but apparently the same old single radar at bumper height. Still no windshield-height radar. No radar scanning in elevation. No LIDAR. That's a better, but still weak sensor suite. It's probably enough for freeway driving under good conditions. It's far below Google's sensor suite. Or Volvo's. Now they just have to write software smart enough to…

> That's a better, but still weak sensor suite. All you have is two overlapping cameras with poor resolution and they let you behind the wheel, right? This is a software and processing hardware problem only . Human beings drive OK for the most part and we don't have lidar/radar/sonar/etc. With 8 cameras providing 360 vision and an advanced NVIDIA hardware suite, this problem is entirely solvable and this is a very re…

In theory, sure. But you're effectively saying computers have to process vision as well as humans, which some experts think is comparable to solving AI. I'm not saying Tesla won't make a lot of progress, but considering how many decades of research has gone into this very problem (I worked on it at Carnegie Mellon as a graduate student, and they've been doing it since the 80's) it will likely take longer than most people like to admit.

I actually don't know a single expert who thinks we're anywhere close to having a stage 4 autonomous vehicle. Most of the people I respect are pegging it at decades instead of years.

Re: All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving Hardware

#150

Post by logn »

thesimon wrote: post #70

If you go to the order page of the Model S, it says for the "Full Self-Driving Hardware": >Please note also that using a self-driving Tesla for car sharing and ride hailing for friends and family is fine, but doing so for revenue purposes will only be permissible on the Tesla Network, details of which will be released next year. Interesting decision.

What if you install self-driving linux.
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