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Oracle wants $9.3B for Google’s use of Java in Android

computerworld.com

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Re: Oracle wants $9.3B for Google’s use of Java in Android

#141

Post by coldtea »

cwyers wrote: post #108
coldtea wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because, as they explicitly write: "Android follows the package and class namespace conventions defined by the Java programming language". And obviously, the names in the packages are carried over, including sun.*, and the documentation is gonna follow that -- though the official name of the runtime is Dalvik (and ART), not Java or JVM or anything like that. As I wrote, that was intentional, so that it's immed…

I think you're conflating Java the language and the Java Virtual Machine. Android does not run the JVM, it runs Dalvik and now ART. Android is going to continue to do this. But it has and will continue to use Java the language, not some language based off Java, as well. And in fact Oracle's lawsuit is about neither the language or the runtime, it's about the APIs. Yes, they were taken from Apache Harmony. Oracle insi…

>But it has and will continue to use Java the language, not some language based off Java, as well.

Java is not the syntax, though, it's the whole specificication -- down to the bytecode.

Google just borrowed the syntax (and API).

(As did other people and projects who did "clean room" clones of Java, while not calling their product/project Java).

>And in fact Oracle's lawsuit is about neither the language or the runtime, it's about the APIs.

Yeah, that's what I wrote above: "That's just at the superficial API level though, which Oracle contested in court".

Re: Oracle wants $9.3B for Google’s use of Java in Android

#142

Post by tyingq »

iheartmemcache wrote: post #127
thrillgore wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would this affect me if i'm using Tomcat to run something like Solr? Am I suddenly on the hook to pay Oracle, even if I am using OpenJDK?

OJDK is GPL v2, so you're a-okay there unless you're shipping a binary (in which case, upon customer request, the source + derivative code has to be released). RH puts out a "100% free" version under the moniker 'Iced Tea', if you want to play it safe. Realistically, attorneys are expensive -- going after a startup worth maybe 10MM on paper for a license violation isn't an economically prudent move for anyone.

OJDK is GPL, but with the "Classpath Exception", which makes a big difference.

http://openjdk.java.net/legal/gplv2+ce.html

Re: Oracle wants $9.3B for Google’s use of Java in Android

#143

Post by alirazaq »

V-2 wrote: post #119
vetinari wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go and Java stdlib have very different opinions about the basic types, used by every app (like strings or maps, heck, even about concepts what is a class and class hierarchies, or how the stack is supposed to look like). So unless you want to wage a perpetual war at the border between your app and Android base libraries, forget Go, or about any language that does not run on JVM.

Without providing close to 100% interoperability, replacing Java with another language would be insane. All the open-source third party libraries for Android (and there's plenty, and many of them have become the de facto industry standard), all of that goes out of the window. I don't see how it could pan out

So progress should be avoided if it means throwing away everything else?

I can see Android rolling this out across two major releases. The first adding support for a new VM or app language and the second removing Java. Time between those releases will give developers the chance to catch up.

I just think it's silly that you are opposed to throwing everything away. That is what got us in this mess to begin with. Android was supposed to be a simple transition for existing J2ME devs.

Re: Oracle wants $9.3B for Google’s use of Java in Android

#144

Post by teacurran »

tyingq wrote: post #122
teacurran wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this any difference than installing Windows 10 on your Kiosk? You are paying for updates and support. You are free to use Linux and OpenJDK if you don't want to pay. Most shops I know of are using OpenJDK for all production deployments at this point unless you have a larger contract with Oracle.

It would be similar if Windows originally released with a license that let you use it without charge, and then later changed the terms of the license in an obscure way that classified a full sized PC as an embedded device. Since Windows has been clear from the start that any commercial use requires a paid license, it's not similar in any way at all.

Kiosk licensing has always been required for shipping machines pre-installed with java. Sun required this 10+ years ago as well.

I'm not a lawyer but I believe this what you can do that you can't do with windows is ship the kiosk without java but give the customer a CD-ROM to install it themselves.

Re: Oracle wants $9.3B for Google’s use of Java in Android

#145

Post by mcosta »

yandie wrote: post #92
jpalomaki wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On software like JDK, my feeling (without thinking too much) is that the API is actually the most valuable part and the one that requires true expertise to craft.

Java Map interface specifies: V get(Object key) I was horrified when I realized you could pass any object to get()

interface{}

Re: Oracle wants $9.3B for Google’s use of Java in Android

#146

Post by AnimalMuppet »

rincebrain wrote: post #140
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, I don't see any way that moving to OpenJDK is going to cost more than $10 billion. Second, if I understand correctly, OpenJDK has a license grant from Oracle. That's going to make it really hard for Oracle to say that Google doesn't have permission to use it.

Moving to OpenJDK might not, but does not retroactively ameliorate any issues they had. I also suspect that OpenJDK's license might bite them in problematic ways, or they would have either done that to start or not had such difficulty negotiating an agreement under whatever terms Java possessed that Google might have wanted alternatives for.

> Moving to OpenJDK ... does not retroactively ameliorate any issues they had.

True. It does prevent damages going forward, however, and it removes Oracle's biggest club - a court order forbidding any further shipments of Android.

Re: Oracle wants $9.3B for Google’s use of Java in Android

#147

Post by vetinari »

alirazaq wrote: post #143
V-2 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without providing close to 100% interoperability, replacing Java with another language would be insane. All the open-source third party libraries for Android (and there's plenty, and many of them have become the de facto industry standard), all of that goes out of the window. I don't see how it could pan out

So progress should be avoided if it means throwing away everything else? I can see Android rolling this out across two major releases. The first adding support for a new VM or app language and the second removing Java. Time between those releases will give developers the chance to catch up. I just think it's silly that you are opposed to throwing everything away. That is what got us in this mess to begin with. Androi…

It took Apple 12 years to deprecate Carbon API. It is still being shipped for compatibility.

Nobody really throws away anything, that other people are depending on. Especially, if you are depending on their continued investment into your platform.

Otherwise, Windows Mobile to Windows Phone happens. Or Python2 to Python3 (how many years it is already taking?)

So two major releases is too optimistic. Especially in android world, where more than two major releases are used simultaneously.

Re: Oracle wants $9.3B for Google’s use of Java in Android

#148

Post by justinlardinois »

ArkyBeagle wrote: post #138
CaptainZapp wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me of the good burghers of SCO and that little shitty they tried to pull off in the beginning of the century. It didn't end well.

Sure it did. Linux.

Both the Linux kernel and the GNU OS predate Caldera acquiring the Santa Cruz Operation and turning into a lawsuit house.

Re: Oracle wants $9.3B for Google’s use of Java in Android

#149

Post by cwyers »

coldtea wrote: post #141
cwyers wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're conflating Java the language and the Java Virtual Machine. Android does not run the JVM, it runs Dalvik and now ART. Android is going to continue to do this. But it has and will continue to use Java the language, not some language based off Java, as well. And in fact Oracle's lawsuit is about neither the language or the runtime, it's about the APIs. Yes, they were taken from Apache Harmony. Oracle insi…

> But it has and will continue to use Java the language, not some language based off Java, as well. Java is not the syntax, though, it's the whole specificication -- down to the bytecode. Google just borrowed the syntax (and API). (As did other people and projects who did "clean room" clones of Java, while not calling their product/project Java). > And in fact Oracle's lawsuit is about neither the language or the run…

I mean, up until a year or two ago, Google just shipped Oracle's javac compiler with its Android build toolchain. This makes about as much sense as saying that if you use musl libc instead of glibc that you're using a different language.

Re: Oracle wants $9.3B for Google’s use of Java in Android

#150

Post by V-2 »

alirazaq wrote: post #143
V-2 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without providing close to 100% interoperability, replacing Java with another language would be insane. All the open-source third party libraries for Android (and there's plenty, and many of them have become the de facto industry standard), all of that goes out of the window. I don't see how it could pan out

So progress should be avoided if it means throwing away everything else? I can see Android rolling this out across two major releases. The first adding support for a new VM or app language and the second removing Java. Time between those releases will give developers the chance to catch up. I just think it's silly that you are opposed to throwing everything away. That is what got us in this mess to begin with. Androi…

Ditching rich pre-existing ecosystem by itself certainly isn't progress. The greatest language without that ecosystem is like the shiniest OS with no apps. This includes communities, developers who've acquired enormous amounts of know-how by now... It would be extremely hard make this trade-off worth it. A tough call, and a multibillion dolar company will think more than twice before choosing that route. I know I would

"I just think it's silly that you are opposed to throwing everything away"

That may be, but I'm pretty sure Google wouldn't think so :)

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