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Oracle wants $9.3B for Google’s use of Java in Android

computerworld.com

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Re: Oracle wants $9.3B for Google’s use of Java in Android

#81

Post by teacurran »

tyingq wrote: post #35

FYI, Oracle is pushing this agenda to squeeze Java shops in other places as well. The tack they are taking is to define any computer that does "one specific thing" as an embedded device and ask you for $300+ per "device", plus some other lofty fees. ( http://www.oracle.com/us/corporate/pricing/price-lists/java-... ) So, if you're using Java in a kiosk, ATM, media player, etc, they may be coming for you. My guess is t…

How is this any difference than installing Windows 10 on your Kiosk? You are paying for updates and support. You are free to use Linux and OpenJDK if you don't want to pay. Most shops I know of are using OpenJDK for all production deployments at this point unless you have a larger contract with Oracle.

Re: Oracle wants $9.3B for Google’s use of Java in Android

#83

Post by [deleted] »

pjmlp wrote: post #42
curt15 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Google doesn't call its fork Java(TM), which makes all the difference between this case and J++. The practice of independently implementing and modifying an API has never been questioned until now. It was not in dispute in J++ and it's in fact the reason why software projects like GNU/Linux (which is at most an approximation of AT&T Unix and has never received any sort of certification) are able to exist.

The fact is that they borked Java compatibility story, regardless how their supporters sell the story. I cannot take whatever piece of Java code I feel like it and run it on Android.

[deleted]

Re: Oracle wants $9.3B for Google’s use of Java in Android

#84

Post by pjmlp »

vetinari wrote: post #43
pjmlp wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it were api compatible Java Android wouldn't be the second coming of J++, where apparently thanks to some strange events it is ok for Google to fork Java, break WORA where even many Java 6 libraries cannot run on Android, not to mention about later versions, and some devs seem to think it is ok. While with Microsoft everyone went out with their pitchforks. Android Java is nothing more than Google's J++.

Google never claimed that Android runs Java (after all, it does not, dex is not Java Bytecode and Dalvik/libART are not JVM). It never passed TCK and never claimed to. They claimed that you can write Android apps in Java language, or reuse your existing libraries written in Java - like Google themselves did with Apache Commons. On the contrary, J++ claimed to be Java implementation. If APIs are going to be copyrighta…

The end result is the same in terms of broken eco-system, anything is just word games.

Re: Oracle wants $9.3B for Google’s use of Java in Android

#85

Post by pjmlp »

sangnoir wrote: post #52
pjmlp wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know pretty much what happened. The fact is that Google forked all of it. You cannot use anything besides a pseudo Java 6.5 (the language), because there isn't support for all features available. You cannot make use of the full Java SDK libraries, because Google's fork only supports cherry picked portions of the JDK, to the point that people have ported JDK classes to Android to close the gaps when porting Java cod…

Reality tends to have more nuance than you are willing to admit in this instance. Sun v. Microsoft was over very specific issues. Even thought the specifics don't seem to matter to you, I'll add a bit more detail. "The sticking point is that Microsoft decided the Core Java class libraries were insufficient for its needs. Now there's nothing wrong with extending things by subclassing and placing the new objects in a p…

The end result is the same in terms of broken eco-system, anything is just word games.

Re: Oracle wants $9.3B for Google’s use of Java in Android

#86

Post by pjmlp »

coldtea wrote: post #44
pjmlp wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know pretty much what happened. The fact is that Google forked all of it. You cannot use anything besides a pseudo Java 6.5 (the language), because there isn't support for all features available. You cannot make use of the full Java SDK libraries, because Google's fork only supports cherry picked portions of the JDK, to the point that people have ported JDK classes to Android to close the gaps when porting Java cod…

No Google "fanboy" (I actually hate the term, it's for immature 20 somethings to use), but Google didn't break the Java ecosystem IMHO. The created a whole new language that happens to be mostly based on Java, for a very specific target OS where Java wasn't even available before. The familiarity with Java is merely a bonus and boost for the adoption of Android programming from Java devs. It's wasn't meant (and it isn…

The end result is the same in terms of broken eco-system, anything is just word games.

Re: Oracle wants $9.3B for Google’s use of Java in Android

#87

Post by curt15 »

pjmlp wrote: post #42
curt15 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Google doesn't call its fork Java(TM), which makes all the difference between this case and J++. The practice of independently implementing and modifying an API has never been questioned until now. It was not in dispute in J++ and it's in fact the reason why software projects like GNU/Linux (which is at most an approximation of AT&T Unix and has never received any sort of certification) are able to exist.

The fact is that they borked Java compatibility story, regardless how their supporters sell the story. I cannot take whatever piece of Java code I feel like it and run it on Android.

They never claimed their implementation to be Java compatible, and there is no legal precedent entitling one to demand all implementations of a library to be compatible even when they do not claim compatibility. GNU/Linux certainly has never paid to be Unix(TM) certified, and despite SCO's repeated legal assaults, the API itself was never in dispute.

Re: Oracle wants $9.3B for Google’s use of Java in Android

#88

Post by agumonkey »

jimbokun wrote: post #76
iheartmemcache wrote: post #6

I was thoroughly impressed with the judge who presided over the last ruling -- IIRC he went so far as to learn at least the basics of Java to the point where I remember being impressed by the insight of the questions he posed. There are subsets of law one can specialize in ranging from medical malpractice to obscure patent litigation, but as far as I know there are no factors linking a presiding judge to a specific s…

"I really think other judges should follow the example he set and at least develop a core understanding in a similar fashion." Many judges probably do, every day, in lots of technically specialized fields, and we're just not paying attention because we're not experts in those fields, either. Shouldn't assume our field is so much harder for judges to understand than medical, scientific, and other specialized fields ju…

Not more difficult per se, but more obfuscated. So much brands, paradigms, domain specific metalanguage. Medicine, physics have some kind of shared, time-tested foundations.

Re: Oracle wants $9.3B for Google’s use of Java in Android

#89

Post by Nicholas_C »

agumonkey wrote: post #88
jimbokun wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I really think other judges should follow the example he set and at least develop a core understanding in a similar fashion." Many judges probably do, every day, in lots of technically specialized fields, and we're just not paying attention because we're not experts in those fields, either. Shouldn't assume our field is so much harder for judges to understand than medical, scientific, and other specialized fields ju…

Not more difficult per se, but more obfuscated. So much brands, paradigms, domain specific metalanguage. Medicine, physics have some kind of shared, time-tested foundations.

>Medicine, physics have some kind of shared, time-tested foundations.

So do programming languages.

Re: Oracle wants $9.3B for Google’s use of Java in Android

#90

Post by coldtea »

cwyers wrote: post #77
coldtea wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I cannot take whatever piece of Java code I feel like it and run it on Android. And you weren't meant to. It's a whole different environment, and they made their own language for it, which they happened to base on Java. The didn't call it "Java", nor they targeted regular Java deployments (like MS did). They just wanted to have something that looks familiar to lots of devs, but for THEIR platform. If MS had done th…

What on Earth are you talking about? From Google's own developer reference[1]: > Android provides a rich application framework that allows you to build innovative apps and games for mobile devices in a Java language environment. In order to compile for Android, you use JACK, the Java Android Compiler Kit.[2] I could go on. Google uses the name Java all the time in reference to the language used for Android. Google di…

That's because, as they explicitly write: "Android follows the package and class namespace conventions defined by the Java programming language". And obviously, the names in the packages are carried over, including sun.*, and the documentation is gonna follow that -- though the official name of the runtime is Dalvik (and ART), not Java or JVM or anything like that.

As I wrote, that was intentional, so that it's immediately familiar to Java programmers. That's just at the superficial API level though, which Oracle contested in court and I don't recall HNers being on their side...

Nobody was ever meant to use it to replace Java in their Java deployments and enterprise apps, or to run Java apps as is on that environment. And Google never promoted it as such -- as a Java replacement. Only as a Java-like environment specifically for Android development, and tied to the specific needs of its OS and devices.

What Android actually runs is a different language implementation through and through, with a different scope (target OS, environments, use etc) and a different VM, GC and tons of different APIs, with tons of not used APIs compared to the Java one's too (Swing for starters). And it's own bytecode of course.

So why should it follow Oracle's Java versions and progress, when it's NOT meant as a Java replacement? It has its own roadmap.

Heck, even the Java-like code behind the APIs, what's not 100% Googles, is not Oracle's or Sun's, but from the open source Apache Harmony project.

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