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Oracle wants $9.3B for Google’s use of Java in Android

computerworld.com

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Re: Oracle wants $9.3B for Google’s use of Java in Android

#52

Post by sangnoir »

pjmlp wrote: post #27
sangnoir wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To refresh your memory: "The complaint charges Microsoft with trademark infringement, false advertising, breach of contract, unfair competition, interference with prospective economic advantage, and inducing breach of contract."[1] You probably know this, but Java-the-language is not the same as Java-the-platform (VM); Google only uses the language bit, not the runtime. They created their own runtime (Dalvik, and lat…

I know pretty much what happened. The fact is that Google forked all of it. You cannot use anything besides a pseudo Java 6.5 (the language), because there isn't support for all features available. You cannot make use of the full Java SDK libraries, because Google's fork only supports cherry picked portions of the JDK, to the point that people have ported JDK classes to Android to close the gaps when porting Java cod…

Reality tends to have more nuance than you are willing to admit in this instance. Sun v. Microsoft was over very specific issues.

Even thought the specifics don't seem to matter to you, I'll add a bit more detail. "The sticking point is that Microsoft decided the Core Java class libraries were insufficient for its needs. Now there's nothing wrong with extending things by subclassing and placing the new objects in a package outside of the java.* class hierarchy. But deciding to add about 50 methods and 50 fields into the classes within the java.awt, java.lang, and java.io packages, as Microsoft did, is extremely problematic. "Microsoft deceptively altered key classes and inserted them into their SDK," said Baratz, which results in developers thinking they are writing Java, when actually they are writing something that runs only on Internet Explorer.[1]

> They tried to screw Sun and take advantage of their economic misfortune.

I have some sympathy for Sun, but had Google asked for permission for Java on Mobile, Sun would have insisted on the abomination that was J2ME because that was their mobile strategy. I'll take Java 6.5 over J2ME any day

1. http://www.javaworld.com/article/2077055/soa/what-does-sun-s...

Re: Oracle wants $9.3B for Google’s use of Java in Android

#53

Post by coldtea »

pjmlp wrote: post #42
curt15 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Google doesn't call its fork Java(TM), which makes all the difference between this case and J++. The practice of independently implementing and modifying an API has never been questioned until now. It was not in dispute in J++ and it's in fact the reason why software projects like GNU/Linux (which is at most an approximation of AT&T Unix and has never received any sort of certification) are able to exist.

The fact is that they borked Java compatibility story, regardless how their supporters sell the story. I cannot take whatever piece of Java code I feel like it and run it on Android.

>I cannot take whatever piece of Java code I feel like it and run it on Android.

And you weren't meant to.

It's a whole different environment, and they made their own language for it, which they happened to base on Java.

The didn't call it "Java", nor they targeted regular Java deployments (like MS did).

They just wanted to have something that looks familiar to lots of devs, but for THEIR platform.

If MS had done the same (and in fact they sort of did, as early C# was heavily based on Java -- just not as much as Google's) they'd have no issue with SUN. But instead they did those changes while still calling it Java and offering it for Java development on Windows.

(Besides, "I cannot take whatever piece of Java code I feel like it and run it on Android" was also true for SUN's own Java Mobile Edition too, when it comes to the mobile edition's compatibility with the Java SDK's on the desktop/server).

Re: Oracle wants $9.3B for Google’s use of Java in Android

#54

Post by CaptainZapp »

tyingq wrote: post #35

FYI, Oracle is pushing this agenda to squeeze Java shops in other places as well. The tack they are taking is to define any computer that does "one specific thing" as an embedded device and ask you for $300+ per "device", plus some other lofty fees. ( http://www.oracle.com/us/corporate/pricing/price-lists/java-... ) So, if you're using Java in a kiosk, ATM, media player, etc, they may be coming for you. My guess is t…

Reminds me of the good burghers of SCO and that little shitty they tried to pull off in the beginning of the century.

It didn't end well.

Re: Oracle wants $9.3B for Google’s use of Java in Android

#58

Post by bobajeff »

LoSboccacc wrote: post #34
bobajeff wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say never. That would kind of be like an apple switching to Swift for iOS. This is even harder for the Android runtime because it's run on a virtual machine with characteristics that don't easily map to another language. Basically if they switch to any other language all the apps that currently use Java (ie. all of them) will have to practically use their own VM -which would be slow - or reprogram everything in a…

Why would maintaining two runtime make dalvik app slower? They're all interpreted anyway.

I was talking about the developer supplying their own VM on top of whatever the new runtime is going to be.

However I suppose they could just add an extra one on the side. I wouldn't really consider that switching though.

Re: Oracle wants $9.3B for Google’s use of Java in Android

#59

Post by vetinari »

jessaustin wrote: post #29
kayoone wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right ? If they keep putting Google under fire for the use of Java, they will only accelerate the process of Google moving away from Java (which is a huge task mind you) and as a result Java will loose a lot of relevance.

Google have indicated a future Android-Chrome merger. Although the public announcements were to the effect of Android simply replacing Chrome, there has been speculation about other outcomes. Perhaps this suit will encourage movement in the other direction, from Android to Chrome.

They did a proof-of-concept Dart runtime (Sky/Flutter).

The bad news was, that everything was reimplemented in Dart, including the widgets, so they had that not-quite-native feel.

Re: Oracle wants $9.3B for Google’s use of Java in Android

#60

Post by GFK_of_xmaspast »

coldtea wrote: post #44
pjmlp wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know pretty much what happened. The fact is that Google forked all of it. You cannot use anything besides a pseudo Java 6.5 (the language), because there isn't support for all features available. You cannot make use of the full Java SDK libraries, because Google's fork only supports cherry picked portions of the JDK, to the point that people have ported JDK classes to Android to close the gaps when porting Java cod…

No Google "fanboy" (I actually hate the term, it's for immature 20 somethings to use), but Google didn't break the Java ecosystem IMHO. The created a whole new language that happens to be mostly based on Java, for a very specific target OS where Java wasn't even available before. The familiarity with Java is merely a bonus and boost for the adoption of Android programming from Java devs. It's wasn't meant (and it isn…

> The created a whole new language that happens to be mostly based on Java

That's the "extend" part of "embrace, extend, extinguish."

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