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Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

nytimes.com

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Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#141

Post by Lawtonfogle »

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #130
izacus wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about a temporarily sales ban? Not a fine, just telling them "No new VW are going to be accepted into traffic for the next 12 months." Cruel, but I bet it's effective.

That's not a good idea. If you ban a large auto maker, you might create a shortage of vehicles, driving prices up for consumers. Also, the affected auto maker would surely try to mitigate the damage by cutting costs, closing down factories, firing workers. Dealerships would have to close as well. In other words, you would cause a lot of collateral damage instead of taking it directly from shareholders via a large fin…

Every time you arrest a parent for committing a crime, you destroy a part of their child's life. Using collateral as justification to avoid punishment results in a system where entities can become to important to punish at all.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#142

Post by a3n »

organsnyder wrote: post #2

This is actively malicious. There had better be criminal charges filed.

I would like to see VW prohibited from selling any vehicles in the US for a small number of quarters. That would be real punishment.

All those dealers and salespeople? There are a certain amount of cars that need to be sold. If VW is out of the mix, the demand is still there. The dealers can sell something else. I'm certain that Toyota and Ford can quickly come to some arrangement with those dealers, including any state legal issues.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#143

Post by Lawtonfogle »

sbov wrote: post #53
nitrogen wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just like sports, even stiffer fine and ruined reputation on being caught cheating. Just like sports, companies will still cheat. When punishment doesn't work, the answer is rarely more punishment.

Caveat: if the punishment does not exceed the profit from cheating, it's not a punishment it's a cost of doing business.

You forgot to multiply the cost if caught by the chance to be caught.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#145

Post by Evolved »

geggam wrote: post #77
beachstartup wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ca doesn't even do smog checks on newer vehicles (i believe 5 years, not sure though). i haven't done one in over a decade because i lease my cars as a business expense. also, ca has 'test-only' smog centers which do not perform repairs - if you fail there, you have to get your car tested and repaired somewhere else. needless to say ca highly incentivizes you to buy new clean cars. it quickly becomes very expensive t…

incentivizes you to buy and old clunker ( pre emissions ) and keep it running forever... or a truck...

Interesting to note is that 1997-older diesel trucks/cars did not and still do not require any smog testing at all.

"Currently, smog inspections are required for all vehicles except diesel powered vehicles 1997 year model and older or with a Gross Vehicle Weight (GVWR) of more than 14,000 lbs, electric, natural gas powered vehicles over 14,000 lbs, motorcycles, trailers, or gasoline powered vehicles 1975 and older."[0]

[0] https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/vr/smogfaq

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#146

Post by Alex3917 »

dragonwriter wrote: post #135
Alex3917 wrote: post #65

Instead of fining the manufacturer, just fine everyone who owns one. If every VW owner was forced to pay 20k or so, the problem would fix itself.

Well, sure, if auto purchasers were at risk of massive fines if they received a vehicle where the manufacturer had done something that the average user wouldn't have the skill to detect, no one subject to the government imposing such fines would ever buy a car again, which would solve the problem quite completely. OTOH, destroying the entire auto industry in the subject jurisdiction might not be considered an optimal…

> destroying the entire auto industry in the subject jurisdiction might not be considered an optimal means of resolving the problem.

I don't see how passing the costs along to future car purchasers is better than extracting the costs from the people who were actually harming others.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#147

Post by jwcooper »

CodeWriter23 wrote: post #20

I don't understand how California detected this. The one time I had to take my 2010 Jetta turbo diesel for a smog check, the inspection was ENTIRELY visual. The inspector did not insert a probe into the tailpipe. He did plug the test rig into the OBD-II port under the steering column and turn the key to the accessory position (presumably to electronically capture the VIN), but that's it. I even asked him at the end i…

California didn't originally detect this. According to the letter from the EPA [1], it was a team at West Virginia University doing a study that discovered that TDI's in normal usage were found to have significantly higher emissions. California's CARB then dug into it to confirm their results and work with the EPA to figure out what was happening.

[1] http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents/vw-nov-caa-09-18-15....

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#148

Post by ju-st »

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #130
izacus wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about a temporarily sales ban? Not a fine, just telling them "No new VW are going to be accepted into traffic for the next 12 months." Cruel, but I bet it's effective.

That's not a good idea. If you ban a large auto maker, you might create a shortage of vehicles, driving prices up for consumers. Also, the affected auto maker would surely try to mitigate the damage by cutting costs, closing down factories, firing workers. Dealerships would have to close as well. In other words, you would cause a lot of collateral damage instead of taking it directly from shareholders via a large fin…

You just have to make sure that the fines are not tax deductible...

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/04/business/when-a-company-is...

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#149

Post by zardo »

notwhereyouare wrote: post #70
toyg wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tests have fixed usage patterns. You detect those while total mileage is low, and you assume it's a test. After X thousand miles, you stop detecting. Job done.

eh, not really. In atlanta, it was once a year, around your birthday. Where I am, outside savannah, it's never. So my car would have no idea if it's being tested or not

That's not the test we're talking about here. This is the official test to get a certificate of compliance and sell a vehicle in the US.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#150

Post by whistlecrackers »

CurtHagenlocher wrote: post #84
dayjah wrote: post #26

When I last bought a VW (2008) I was concerned due to a clunking noise after first starting it up and driving a few miles; I called the VW service dept and they explained that there was a compressor which captured exhaust fumes and released them at a lower rate for the first few miles of each journey -- to help them meet EPA emissions standards. I was assured there was nothing to worry about. While this is a differen…

There is a more charitable interpretation. When engines are colder, they burn less efficiently and produce "worse" emissions. A system that treats the warmup period differently than the steady-state of running a hot engine is potentially quite reasonable.

Shh... logic, facts, and reasoning have no place in an argument about _the environment_
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