Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet • Hacker News Board

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#131

Post by ffn » Thu, Jul 16, 2015, 6:03 PM UTC

itg wrote: post #13

From what i've seen on reddit, twitter, and sometimes even on hn, some are quick to label people whose opinion differs from theirs as trolls. It doesn't matter if it is a polite or well-though out comment, they are quick to shout the word harassment or whatever -ist allows them to hold some moral high ground.

It's actually kind of amazing, the modern day media has lifted shamelessly the exact attitude of intolerance and hostility that used to be targeted strictly at people of color in the 60s, and now are targeting people of opinions today. Armed with their vocabulary of loaded words like "troll", "racist", "sexist", and "shitlord", they just as readily label, harass, and even destroy people (i.e. wreck their careers, get them fired, etc.) as those crazy mobs half a century ago in the south. There's no consideration for context, individuality, intention, or circumstance; you recognize a woman is different from a man = you're a sexist. You question diversity = you're a troll. You bring up crime statistics = you're a racist.

And the hilarious thing is, the "trolls" didn't even "win". Reddit's new CEO is implementing even stricter censorship measures, all of it most likely in the hopes of making reddit more appealing for advertisers. If you stand back and look at this whole fiasco from a distance, Reddit higher-ups want to make more money, and in order to do so, they decide they need to curb their more "unsightly" elements. But attacking free speech is a dicey proposition, so what do they do? They hire a woman and make her do it. If redditors are dumb sheep and take it quietly, great. If not, wrap the whole thing around her neck and throw her under the bus (reminds you of the Bourne Trilogy deson't it), then come riding in on a white horse to "save" reddit from "chairman Pao".

And so far, it's working perfectly. The "trolls" celebrate their victory by having the sensationalist media blast them on their sexism, Pao's reputation is utterly destroyed and she's essentially too toxic to employ anywhere, and Reddit still gets to wipe the floor with free speech.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#132

Post by paulhauggis » Thu, Jul 16, 2015, 6:03 PM UTC

VikingCoder wrote: post #48

DanBC wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pao had thousands of people calling her a ching-chong cunt. Why do you think your comment is relevant to this thread?

Pao had thousands of accounts calling her a ching-chong cunt. There's potentially a big difference. I'm not defending the slur - it's abhorrent. But if the magnitude matters to you, let's try to be accurate when we describe what we're counting.

Really? So you are going to count the number of "accounts" now?

She was bullied and forced to resign. This is the standard operating procedure of many here on HN and on the Internet (Mozilla CEO anyone?): Someone just can't have a differing opinion. They need to be bullied, tormented, silenced, fired, and marginalized until they admit that their opinion is wrong.

It was all based on mis-information (many still don't know why the AmA employee was fired) and mob mentality.

Just remember this conversation when you get fired because someone does research on your your Internet comments and decides that one of your opinions is deemed "offensive". It will most likely happen someday.

I also find it a little funny that when someone in a git repository doesn't use specific gender pronouns, they are called out as biased (and bullied). But when hundreds and thousands of people call a woman racial slurs (so much worse), it's defended.

This is my point exactly: Most people talking about 'equality' are lying. They want equality when someone is against their own personal beliefs, but are just fine spewing the same hate and bigotry when the roles are reversed.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#133

Post by ewzimm » Thu, Jul 16, 2015, 6:03 PM UTC

lcswi wrote: post #98

ewzimm wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is debating that extreme insults are normal when people get angry. What people are saying is that it needs to stop being normal.

I totally support that, but the Internet is probably the worst and hardest place to try initiate that change. Opposed to the real world, wannabe bullies have zero chance of seeing a reaction from their victims if those do not react. Online bullies like there DO lose their interest. Just look at past outrages on reddit to see. People need to despise that these short-term hype shitstorms are not worth reacting to'. May…

I definitely think the solution has to be deeper than banning people from forums. People exhibiting sociopathic tendencies have needs that aren't being met in their real lives. They most likely need therapy, counseling, or community support. They might have abusive home lives. The online harrassment issue is a big warning sign that there are deep social issues all over the world that aren't being addressed, but everyone knew that already. What this really calls for is expanded mental health care, but I don't know if anyone is going to respond that way, since it's expensive and requires a lot of people doing hard work.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#134

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jul 16, 2015, 6:04 PM UTC

partiallypro wrote: post #74

I'm going to disagree. I've been in IRC, Forums, Newsgroups, lurked 4Chan, Reddit, and Slashdot for years. It has actually been evolving to a point, especially among the younger crowd to get bent out of shape about essentially nothing. Maybe that is because more of our lives are online than before, but if you were to go through Twitter and Tumblr and just browse around it is a huge mess of people constantly being off…

[deleted]

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#135

Post by lfuller » Thu, Jul 16, 2015, 6:05 PM UTC

curiousjorge wrote: post #99

DanBC wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pao had thousands of people calling her a ching-chong cunt. Why do you think your comment is relevant to this thread?

What makes you think that kind of vulgar racial slur (even if it's a reference) is excusable? By referencing it you've added to that voice.

That doesn't seem to follow to me. If you ignore or suppress abusive language that doesn't make it stop - it just means you've accepted it.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#136

Post by danielweber » Thu, Jul 16, 2015, 6:07 PM UTC

mahouse wrote: post #116

Slick135 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is /r/Stuff, /r/iAMA_troll_AmA, /r/PaoMustResign, or /r/EllenPao_IsA_Cunt even default subreddits? I didn't see any of those on the front page that day. If they aren't default, then does it really matter? If trolls want to troll away in their own little troll cave, so be it?

I assume lots of people understand /r/all as the "real" front page of Reddit.

Why? It's no one's default unless you manually subscribe to all subreddits, and you don't get "/r/all" unless type it in or click on "ᴀʟʟ" to get to it.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#137

Post by Nadya » Thu, Jul 16, 2015, 6:07 PM UTC

ewzimm wrote: post #57

lcswi wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thousands of people? Where did you get that number from? Also, there were (misguided) reasons for people to be upset, which does not justify the racism, but hey, extreme insults are normal if you are very angry (no, not just on the Internet but also outside tech filter bubbles).

Nobody is debating that extreme insults are normal when people get angry. What people are saying is that it needs to stop being normal.

I'd much rather eradicate murder. Murder sucks. It needs to stop being a normal day-to-day occurrence in our lives. Someone, somewhere will be murdered today. How can you continue with your life knowing that will happen? Worse - it will be more than one person! Multiple people will be murdered today, tomorrow, and every day in the future too! Most of them are total strangers, but maybe one day it will be someone you know. I don't want to live in a world like that. In fact, I don't think anyone wants to live in a world with murder.

We have laws against it, we punish murderers, but murder still happens! All of our attempts over thousands of years have failed to eradicate murder! There has to be more we can do! Do you have suggestions?

------

In case my point isn't made clear: there are some things that are simply facts of life. You will not be able to solve them. People are emotional and will react on those emotions. Sometimes people will do terrible things while acting on these emotions. Sometimes we will fight with one another, sometimes we will throw fists at one another, sometimes we will call each other names. We'll bury each other 6' under ground. These are things that happen. We know they happen. We expect them to happen. While none of us wishes these things happen, we recognize that they will happen. That recognition of things that will happen is what makes those things normal. Normal things do not get our attention. We haven't been trained to care about expected, normal things.

I recognize that tomorrow morning, the sun will rise. It's a very special event. It means the sun is still burning and providing light and life to the planet. It's a normal occurrence though. The sun will rise the day after tomorrow. In fact, the sun will likely rise every day for the rest of my life. It's an expected occurrence. It's a normal one. I don't celebrate it. I don't pay attention to it, most of the time. Some days I might appreciate the sunrise and the beauty of it. Most days it gets ignored.

Some days I notice some terrible occurrence happening in the world. Those terrible things happen every day. They're normal. So most days. They get ignored.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#138

Post by upofadown » Thu, Jul 16, 2015, 6:07 PM UTC

Trolling is not a new thing. As long as hateful and/or sociopathic and/or sadistic people exist there will be trolls and trolling. You can only manage trolling, you can't eliminate it. That's the mistake Reddit made, they thought they could eliminate it, or at least hide it, and that isn't something that anyone knows how to do. In their efforts they make some basic mistakes.

They removed areas where the trolls had self segregated (ex. fatshaming) forcing them back into the rest of the community. They failed to properly ignore the trolls and reacted to them up to the extent of claiming that the resignation of a member of their executive had something to do with their actions.

I predict that the Reddit troll problem is going to get much worse before it gets better.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#139

Post by danielweber » Thu, Jul 16, 2015, 6:09 PM UTC

keedot wrote: post #91

lingben wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted." - Ralph Waldo Emerson edit: although tangentially relevant, this case in Canada is hair raising: http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/christie-blatchfor...

Christie Blatchford's skew is quite heavy in this reporting. I've seen the other side of the argument with some of the behaviours and tweets in question, and it's not so clear cut. I would definitely feel harassed by this individual, and in Canada, we do not claim to have the free speech as defined in America. Hate speech is not tolerated here, and most Canadians are in agreement with this. You can have a difference…

> if you attack someone with words, there are legal consequences.

What a horrible country. I hate it deeply.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#140

Post by sbov » Thu, Jul 16, 2015, 6:10 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #6

wxs wrote: post #2

I just posted this in the earlier submission[1], but I'll put it here too: I really worry that if we don't find a way to fix the abuse problem, pseudonymity online will be looked back on by future generations as our time's Klan hood. Abuse stories like these make me embarrassed to support any form of privacy online. Platforms need to take a stand and find a way reduce hate and abuse, or public opinion (and my own) wi…

People are just as hateful under their real names. The Facebook ad featuring a Sikh artist got a lot of really unpleasant comments from people using their real identities. I don't think anyone suggests the Youtube comments were any better after real-name policy.

Confirmation bias and all, but: I had a friend in high school who was really cool. But he was a complete ass to everyone, even his friends, on the internet. It's not like he was anonymous to us or anything. We saw him in person every day of the week.