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When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

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Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#131

Post by tbrownaw »

sxp wrote: post #117
nickbauman wrote: post #108

Didn't everyone work this issue out when they first entered the work force? Soon after I got my first job out of college my employer told me it was "not a good idea to talk about your compensation" with my co-workers. You know how they say "consider the source" when you get information? Why would my employer not want me to share my compensation with my co-workers? _Because it benefits them_ if their workforce is obli…

If you know the salary of the people you're directly working with, things can get awkward. One alternative is to discuss salary with people who are sufficiently distant from your daily work but are expected to be making the same amount as you. For large companies, this would be people in different divisions who have the same title and years of experience. For small companies, you will probably need to talk to people…

If you know the salary of the people you're directly working with, things can get awkward. One alternative is to discuss salary with people who are sufficiently distant from your daily work

What about things like everyone writing down how much they make and putting it in a hat? Everyone gets all the numbers and how they compare with everyone else, but doesn't know which other number goes with which person.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#132

Post by frandroid »

mabbo wrote: post #87
tormeh wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A solution is to just make everyone's tax reports public. The worst that happens is you get tasteless websites ranking who earns and owns most in your area. Really, that's it. Norway tried it and it got a little too tasteless for our politicians, so now it's a government website thing where anyone you view can see that you've viewed them. You still get some cool stats, though: http://www.dn.no/skattelister/#!/Norge/2…

In Canada, all public sector employees making more than $100,000 have their names and salaries published by the Government. But they don't adjust for inflation. In another decade or two, literally all public employees will have their salaries published.

That's just for Ontario's provincially-funded public sector employees, not all of Canada.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#133

Post by czep »

TheLoneWolfling wrote: post #113
czep wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women are not objectively less productive workers. Men die earlier--insurance companies have figured this out so why don't companies pay them less as a result? They're going to die sooner, that's a significant risk to the company, they should be paid less than women. Men are more likely to engage in risky behavior, more likely to have anger management issues, more likely to provoke harrassment cases, all reasons to p…

Men die earlier, yes. You have a point there. [2][3] says that ~90999/100000 males survive to age 60 and ~94194/100000 females survive to age 60. That's a difference of ~3195/100000, or ~3.2%. However, the question becomes if men retire earlier. And the answer is no. [1] Women retire earlier than men on average (at least in Canada. Don't have stats handy for anywhere else, unfortunately). And that's measured in years…

Men at all age levels have higher insurance rates than women. This means they are riskier employees than women and if the reason women are being paid less is purely economic then the situation ought to be reversed and men should be paid less because of the higher risk. So clearly the reason is not economic but is a systemic bias.

Yes, making an argument involving decisions that affect the life chances of human beings and hiding behind "economic theory" is sociopathic.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#134

Post by mystique »

SteveGerencser wrote: post #56
mistermann wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is "women are less likely to counter-offer and negotiate during the hiring process" obviously not reality also? (Serious question.)

It is very likely. My wife is a very well respected Engineer in her field and when she was asked to come out of retirement, she retired to start a farm and enjoy the outdoors, they called her back and made what I thought was a very low offer. She was going to accept it because to her it was a work from home gig and was near what she used to make. I said no and helped her negotiate an additional 30% in her rate that s…

I agree with squozzer, you should consider expanding your activities beyond folks who know you personally.

I really like my work and I work a lot. I have worked in early-mid stage startup and now am working with a pre-series A stage startup. I have never shied away from asking for more responsibilities or climbing up the management chain. I am generally known as the more assertive person in the organization. But when it comes to compensation, I cannot bring it up. Not sure if it has to do with being a female.

It would be ideal if there was a 'go to' person who can push me more in negotiating for better compensation.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#135

Post by [deleted] »

SteveGerencser wrote: post #56
mistermann wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is "women are less likely to counter-offer and negotiate during the hiring process" obviously not reality also? (Serious question.)

It is very likely. My wife is a very well respected Engineer in her field and when she was asked to come out of retirement, she retired to start a farm and enjoy the outdoors, they called her back and made what I thought was a very low offer. She was going to accept it because to her it was a work from home gig and was near what she used to make. I said no and helped her negotiate an additional 30% in her rate that s…

[deleted]

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#136

Post by czep »

UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #63
tormeh wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A solution is to just make everyone's tax reports public. The worst that happens is you get tasteless websites ranking who earns and owns most in your area. Really, that's it. Norway tried it and it got a little too tasteless for our politicians, so now it's a government website thing where anyone you view can see that you've viewed them. You still get some cool stats, though: http://www.dn.no/skattelister/#!/Norge/2…

> A solution is to just make everyone's tax reports public. Hell no. I don't want to be targeted be advertisers, penalised by insurers, and become a target for robbery because I have my personal information spread around for everyone to see. There's a lot of personal shit on your tax return. Far more than is even apparent. It can also expose your side business to your employer which could cause issues. I'm all for sa…

Criminals and marketers already know how rich you are based on where you live. Published tax forms will have no effect on your probability of being robbed.

It argue tax forms are private, but that's what's at issue here. Many societies think this should be public information. It goes a long way towards preventing graft.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#137

Post by speik »

tbrownaw wrote: post #131
sxp wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you know the salary of the people you're directly working with, things can get awkward. One alternative is to discuss salary with people who are sufficiently distant from your daily work but are expected to be making the same amount as you. For large companies, this would be people in different divisions who have the same title and years of experience. For small companies, you will probably need to talk to people…

If you know the salary of the people you're directly working with, things can get awkward. One alternative is to discuss salary with people who are sufficiently distant from your daily work What about things like everyone writing down how much they make and putting it in a hat? Everyone gets all the numbers and how they compare with everyone else, but doesn't know which other number goes with which person.

But within a certain range, I really only care what someone in a similar position to me is making.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#138

Post by pavel_lishin »

crazy1van wrote: post #24

This article seems to basically say its already illegal to prohibit employees from discussing pay (NLRA 1935) and it is certainly illegal to pay someone less based on race or sex (Equal Pay Act, and others) but the solution to wage discrimination is pass more laws that make it illegal-er. I have a hard time buying this argument. If you are an employer despicable enough to systematically be paying women less just for…

> If you are an employer despicable enough to systematically be paying women less just for being women, I don't think another redundant law is going to change your behavior.

It might if your employees start suing you and costing you money.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#139

Post by cbr »

forgotpasswd3x wrote: post #122
kaitai wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not despicable. As a woman, I'll repeat: paying women less for being women is not despicable. That doesn't mean it's good. It's bad. But it's normal and there are a lot of social forces at work. Good, well-meaning people have all sorts of logical reasons to pay women or minorities or handicapped people less. You don't have to be evil to participate in a sucky system. We all do, even the virtuous ones. So, open y…

Could you give an example where a good, well-meaning person would have a logical reason to pay a minority less?

Lets say you're hiring a freelancer and you take bids. The lowest bid is from a member of a historically disadvantaged minority, and the reason their bid is lower is because as a member of that group discrimination makes it harder for them to find work. A good, well-meaning person might still accept the bid.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#140

Post by protomyth »

thatusertwo wrote: post #62
protomyth wrote: post #5

I was at a company[1] where all the bill rates for a consultant heavy project got leaked by bad permissions on documents. I didn't think much of it at the time because I knew my bill rate (my share was a %). There were a two groups of pretty ticked off people. The employees who were "underpaid"[2] and the consultants who didn't know their bill rate[3]. It is an odd example of what happens when every knows what the co…

25% sounds about right.

If you're getting 25% as a consultant and not an H1B, then you probably should go through someone else. That is pretty pathetic.
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