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Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

johannakoll.posterous.com

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Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#131

Post by Jabbles »

I think† the key point many people miss is this:

"These are just a few examples..."

It's endemic. Everywhere. Each example on its own is a unwelcome irritant, but the repetition and seemingly universal acceptance makes the problem so much worse. O(n) probably...

I don't attribute any malice to most of the presenters, "Most of the guys were genuinely sorry and glad I made them aware of the damage they were doing.". No raindrop feels responsible for the flood, and all that.

More obviously sexist material is noticed by many more people, and uproar rightfully occurs (http://news.cnet.com/8301-31322_3-57434780-256/dell-apologiz...). But the continuous, boiling-frog, "just-a-joke" sexism is a big problem.

†I don't actually know...

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#132

Post by Garoof »

coldtea wrote: post #59
DanBC wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe gender related jokes don't have a place at conferences and work places > I mean, where does this political correctness stop It seems really obvious to me. At work, at a conference, you don't tell racist, sexist, ableist etc jokes. What you do outside work is up to you. (But, if you do it outside work and in public it may complicate things if you have a work related discrimination problem.) > political correct…

> "Political correctness" is often a buzzword used to dismiss people who want to discuss this. Other, better, words exist. "Politeness" is one. "Freedom of expression" is another, though.

I'd say "freedom of expression" serves kind of the same purpose as "political correct" on this one though.

This is not "freedom of expression" being under attack. It is, at most, about let's maybe not so much invite guys like that to talk at conferences.

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#133

Post by dutchbrit »

Seriously guys, jokes about female bodily functions are not funny. Period.

All "jokes" aside, most jokes target certain groups of people, so are essentially discriminating one way or another. But there's a big difference taking jokes seriously. I laughed when I heard the joke that I mentioned above (only because of the wordplay). Some might find that a bit childish. That being said, I still 'respect' women 100% and see them as equals. And if a girl wants to make a joke about men? Sure, why not? A joke is suppose to be lighthearted and shouldn't be taken serious at all (hence the name 'joke').

But using these 'jokes' at conferences etc... is a massive no-no. It's uncomfortable for the women that are attending. It adds no extra value at all (but sure, feel free to ).

Ps. the examples given don't even seem to be funny whatsoever. Sure, the majority of men love checking out 'hot babes', but if women have to watch the same demo, it's just plain weird... And it's not even relevant/professional.

The equivalent would be us men, looking at topless hunks from some random TV show during a tech demo. Again, weird (although I'd probably laugh a lot more for some bizarre reason).

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#134

Post by singular »

fab13n wrote: post #117

[this is a tentative explanation, no judgment, neither justification nor condemnation] My impression, as a male who's evolved in several macho environments including high tech, is that the grossest sexist jokes are about males' frustration with gender imbalance, rather than against women. What makes a joke funny? The fact that it's intellectually engaging, or wildly surprising, or that it discharges an existing yet u…

>My empirical observation is that when a few women join a male professional setup, sexists jokes quickly vanish, not because people don't dare cracking them, but because they don't feel the need to tell them anymore (IMMV). It nevertheless remains half of a vicious circle keeping women out of some career paths, to the detriment of both genders.

Except there are women attending these conferences.

Being frustrated about something doesn't make it okay to do something which hurts people and expresses a prejudice. I am personally very frustrated when it comes to women, but it doesn't make it okay for me to try to bully them, because that is what this is plain and simple.

Funny how many meandering explanations/justifications are sat in this thread. Quite depressing.

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#136

Post by VMG »

diego_moita wrote: post #65
VMG wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that a separate issue? I doubt that the speakers intend to put down women, they just lacked the insight that their comedic material makes some people feel uncomfortable.

I don't think so (I am a man); in the end it all boils down to excluding women. My 4 year old boy goes to a day-care where one of the care givers is a man. I know of at least a mother that refused to leave her kid there scared that he was a sexual predator. The same prejudice is faced by male obstetricians. In the end, whenever you stigmatize a profession as belonging for a specific gender you do sexism, doesn't matt…

I just can't see how making jokes that include sexual imagery are at the expense of women.

Crude? yes - inappropriate? absolutely - funny? not in my mind - "against" women? I don't understand how.

I make this distinction because I think about an old professors of mine who stupidly would try to make women welcome by saying things like "Nice to have such a beautiful young lady here". His intent was to make them feel better, but he didn't get that it doesn't work that way.

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#137

Post by jseliger »

klodolph wrote: post #127
jseliger wrote: post #83

>A talk at a conference showing girls in bikinis. An API presentation from a sponsor featuring ladies in bras. A demo at a hack day with a slide of women in underwear. A business model canvas workshop using a strip club as an example to illustrate the tool. These are just a few examples of casual sexism I've experience at (tech) events. Where does sexy end and sexism begin? I too am against sexism (who isn't?), but m…

> Sexism in tech and the workplace are real problems, but I don't think a slide with a woman in underwear is a good example. You're dismissing a real problem here. Sexism is not isolated to acts of discrimination, it is a part of culture. Fixing sexism is not just about stopping discrimination, it is about changing culture. We bombard kids with pictures of sexy women in bikinis and men in lab coats, and wonder why th…

Sexism is not isolated to acts of discrimination, it is a part of culture. Fixing sexism is not just about stopping discrimination, it is about changing culture

Maybe, but I'm not convinced: again, see Sciolino as a counter-example.

We bombard kids with pictures of sexy women in bikinis and men in lab coats, and wonder why there aren't as many women in tech even though they're so damn competent at it.

There's some truth to this—"we" should show more women in lab coats (and men in bikinis?). But women in bikinis appear in so many contexts (advertising, magazines, etc.) because so many people apparently want to see women in bikinis. If Carl Sagan's latest book or Hillary Clinton's latest achievements sold millions of copies of Vogue or US Weekly or sugared water, no one would be happier than me, but they don't.

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#138

Post by str8gk »

monochromatic wrote: post #9

Q: How many feminists does it take to change a lightbulb? A: That is NOT funny. In seriousness though, she sort of does have a point. Women at these types of thing are pretty outnumbered, and making them uncomfortable with stuff like this isn't very... gentlemanly.

OMG literal LoL

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#139

Post by jseliger »

sp332 wrote: post #118
jseliger wrote: post #83

>A talk at a conference showing girls in bikinis. An API presentation from a sponsor featuring ladies in bras. A demo at a hack day with a slide of women in underwear. A business model canvas workshop using a strip club as an example to illustrate the tool. These are just a few examples of casual sexism I've experience at (tech) events. Where does sexy end and sexism begin? I too am against sexism (who isn't?), but m…

In the examples you gave, there are 2 problems: 1. It reduces women to nothing more than sex objects. Sex isn't just part of the job, but the women's whole reason for being included. 2. Women (and men!) feel like control over their sexuality is being taken away. When a presenter puts up a slide of a stripper, some of the audience will feel uncomfortable just because their sexuality was invoked without their consent.

Interesting reply, but I'm not convinced that this: "Women (and men!) feel like control over their sexuality is being taken away" is true. Again, see Sciolino as a counter-example.

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#140

Post by tehwalrus »

[comment on the comments here] These threads make me so depressed.

HN is normally such a well-informed, polite place. Then someone posts a "sexism exists and is bad" post and suddenly this is a youtube comment thread where wilfully-ignorant people shout at each other (alas, with a layer of smugness because they have superficially analysed the problem, or rather, have analysed how to speak their prejudice while sounding logical.)

The contributions on the side of the angels always get more upvotes, but the sheer numbers of those on the other side often seem to drown them out.

Boo, I say! Less of this sort of thing!

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