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Dark Pattern Games

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Re: Dark Pattern Games

#131

Post by Kiro »

jasonlotito wrote: post #126
Kiro wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree that they are dark though. > Trying to save your ego or pride by pretending is silly. Now you really convinced me!

> I don't agree that they are dark though. But they are. That you disagree is immaterial. > Now you really convinced me! Convincing you isn't important to me. Correcting you is.

No, they are not and you have no authority in this matter.

> Convincing you isn't important to me. Correcting you is.

Truly, a martyr for the greater good.

Re: Dark Pattern Games

#132

Post by autoexec »

p1necone wrote: post #40
protocolture wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PoE seems to be an outlier, having probably the softest freemium model in existence. I dont recall having been even slightly tempted to spend money in that game.

You say that, but some of the games that people point at as having harmful monetization have basically the same system of only selling cosmetic items that don't give you an advantage (e.g. Fortnite). And PoE's stash tabs straddle that line a bit. As far as I can tell the main difference is a younger demographic and being more pop culture adjacent. I don't think that should affect whether you consider it "bad" monetiz…

Some of Fortnite's skins have given players an advantage. They've sometimes changed skins later because of it. Fortnite has other dark patterns and harmful monetization practices too though, from their season passes to their in-game currency.

Re: Dark Pattern Games

#133

Post by autoexec »

amne wrote: post #86
joaohaas wrote: post #47

Overall it feels like unless your game is a linear single-player game, it will fall under multiple of the site's labelled 'dark patterns'. Here are some really bad ones: Infinite Treadmill - Impossible to win or complete the game. Variable Rewards - Unpredictable or random rewards are more addictive than a predictable schedule. Can't Pause or Save - The game does not allow you to stop playing whenever you want. Grind…

Chess: - infinite treadmill: theoretically you can play all possible moves but not in a lifetime. - variable rewards: sometimes you stumble upon (or try) a tactic that works. - can't pause or save: except when you maybe play against a computer which is not the point of the game - grinding: you need to play the same openings many many times to encounter all the responses that will let you know if your "build" is worth…

If Chess were a mobile game, you'd be forced to watch an ad after every three moves, the bishop would be on a timer and to use it again you'd have to wait 10 moves or pay using in-game currency, the knight would only be available if you bought the DLC, and the game wouldn't run unless you granted it access to all of your contacts.

Re: Dark Pattern Games

#134

Post by ticulatedspline »

offsky wrote: post #75

It’s always shocking to see one of my sites pop up on HN. For context around my motivation to make the site. I was really addicted to a certain mobile game to the point that it was affecting my work and family life. I stumbled upon an article about how game companies hire psychologists to make the games more addicting. This led me down a rabbit hole of researching dark patterns. It was very eye opening and by learnin…

Nice site, I naturally tend to hate games that use dark patterns so never really had the addiction issue but I know many who do, nice to expose that.

Though a few nitpicks:

- on the identified patterns themselves. Grind, infinite treadmill aren't inherently dark. Lots of games grind is filler, or even the game, I play lots of incremental/idle games which are in some respects grind/infinite incarnate. Grind tends to only be truly dark pattern when used as a tool to promote micro-transactions.

- Social Obligation / Guilds are also not inherently dark or even the fault of the developer. Pretty much any multiplayer game will see that kind of obligation develop from first principles. Also sometimes "that's the game" Only if the developer is specifically leveraging aspects of that to further addiction would it be considered dark vs a facet of the game itself.

- Low vote skew: Scoring something based on only a few inputs is a problem for any review service but here I think it has potential to skew results in both directions. It would be more fair to weigh votes below a certain threshold (maybe 10) less and maybe even use a different color to indicate a game that's leaning light/dark but doesn't have enough data.

Re: Dark Pattern Games

#136

Post by mrheosuper »

rpigab wrote: post #119
mrheosuper wrote: post #102

I am wondering are there any modern, slightly complex games that does not have any dark patterns ?

I was about to say Dwarf Fortress, but you said "modern", so I'll go with Minecraft.

Doesn't minecraft have "you have to go back to where you die to get back your item" ? I feel it's forced to play.

Re: Dark Pattern Games

#137

Post by ehnto »

n8m8 wrote: post #123
ehnto wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Especially for online games, these aspects are actually quite core to long term play. I am pretty casual as far as time invested goes, but many online games have to cater to both me and the Die Hards who play their games 10x more than other players. To the die hard players, the infinite grind is a feature, treadmills help them reach whatever insane goals the developers have to keep cooking up so that they're satisfie…

What % of the time do you think the die-hard gamers live a healthy lifestyle? I’m thinking it’s higher than my knee jerk reaction, like 40-50%, but an important consideration. Of course people define “healthy” differently too, but obesity and mental health crises have objectively grown and correlate with rising technology use.

This is a hard one for me to ballpark because all my gaming friends are gym rats, so my view is probably skewed. Some of them game hours every day and make time for gym and nutrition. Unsure of there other health needs though.

I think it's much harder to be healthy when 6+hrs of your day is gaming. Especially if you also have work. It takes time to eat healthy, excercise, get out into the sun and be social. At some point you must be making compromises to game 6hrs a day.

Re: Dark Pattern Games

#138

Post by p0w3n3d »

CamouflagedKiwi wrote: post #107
symbogra wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't know there was a new diablo 2? I mean the original one from two decades ago. I agree its not bad compared to modern games since the grinding just wasted your time rather than money (there was a secondary market for items that was worth some money but you didn't need to participate). I feel like it was one of the prototypical games of this kind of grind.

There's a remastered version - Diablo 2 Resurrected. It's very similar, with some QoL changes but mostly it's the same game, so of course the same grind.

Diablo and all the RPG is all about grind. But I'd say, in a positive way. You know what they say... don't go to PvP if you don't kill enough boars... (watch?v=TBmG7eRjZ2g)

Re: Dark Pattern Games

#139

Post by brulard »

mzajc wrote: post #2

I like the idea, but their ratings seem.. dubious at best. For example: Hyperrogue, which hit the frontpage a few times and which I can confidently say does not feature any dark patterns, is rated just 1.19 [0] on a 5 (best) to -5 (worst) scale. [0] https://www.darkpattern.games/game/18554/0/hyperrogue.html

Regarding hyperrogue, I've seen it mentioned multiple times as a fun game. I tried to play it but I had found no fun in it at all. The non-euclidean take is interesting, but it felt just like a demo of the weird-geometry engine, I've found no enjoyment in that. Graphics is rough, I've found no interesting items, enemies, mechanics or puzzles. Not sure if I just played it wrong or why my experience was different.
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