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Responding to Beggars

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Re: Responding to Beggars

#131

Post by dkersten »

gioele wrote: post #69
Muzza wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The situation is similar in Sweden, but I have thankfully not heard of anyone disfiguring someone else for these purposes. Yet. One of the glorious benefits of being a member of the EU is that we now have to put up with organized gangs of beggars coming in from Romania, Bulgaria etc harassing us on our streets. (The leftists have proposed that we add these people to our welfare rolls and give them their own apartment…

Have you a problem with Bulgarian people or Bulgarian criminals? If you have a problem with Bulgarian people in general, then, well, that is called xenophobia or more simply racism. If you have a problem with Bulgarian criminals, then complain to your police force. How come you able to spot such criminals so easily while they cannot? Did you make precise and detailed reports to the police about cases you witnessed, e…

If you have a problem with Bulgarian criminals, then complain to your police force.

Unfortunately the legal system here (and I assume elsewhere in the EU) doesn't cover this situation so there is little I or the police can do.

Talking about apartments, do you agree on the principle that access to public housing should be given to those most in need?

I think the point was that they do not need them and even their own citizens don't get this.

Re: Responding to Beggars

#132

Post by pemulis »

cturner wrote: post #48
pemulis wrote: post #19

For the most part, I only give money to homeless people who put out a cup or a hat and don't try to sell me on a story. I've been lied to so many times that I assume every story is a lie. I don't try to buy specific items like food or train tickets, either. I don't want to dictate what they ought to spend the money on. If they want to spend it on food or clothes, great. If they would prefer to spend it on drugs or lo…

Why would you do that? Is it because you're told to by a priest to be charitable or because your sense of guilt push you into making the world a worse place. Or sympathy? Look at the long view. It only takes a few people to keep doing that, and they'll keep existing at that level instead of finding a better way to get by. You're enabling them.

The three main causes of homelessness in America are sudden economic misfortune, mental illness, and addiction.

People in the first category are actively looking for a way to get back on their feet. Giving them money is better than giving them a meal, a ticket, or a bit of clothing. They know what they need most, and will spend their money accordingly. Insisting that they choose from my list of pre-approved spending options does more harm than good, from a utility standpoint. From an emotional standpoint, it's condescending and demeaning.

In the second case, the person has few employment options and a weak support network, otherwise they would not be out on the street. They won't use the money I give them as well as people in the first category, but who am I to say what they want or need? I'm not trying to solve a social problem. I'm trying to ease the suffering of an individual.

It's difficult to distinguish people in the third group from the people in the second group, since mental illness and addiction often work in tandem. I don't bother to try. Anyway, the addict's hierarchy of needs is roughly: Food > Drugs > Shelter. If I buy them a sandwich, they can spend the remainder of their money on drugs. If they're a serious addict, a lack of charity won't stand between them and the drugs they need. If they can't scrounge up enough money through legitimate means, petty crime is the next step. Overcoming addiction is a complicated process that comes from within. You can't starve the addict into going clean. If I give a homeless person a dollar and that money goes towards drugs, that's a shame, but at least it eases their suffering for a moment.

Again, giving money to a homeless person isn't a long-term solution to social problems. It's a small gesture from one individual to another. They have a cut, so I give them a band-aid. Homelessness is a difficult and complicated problem. Withholding charity won't suddenly result in homeless people straightening up and flying right. The reality is that many of them, at least in the short term, are unemployable. Withholding charity just increases their suffering.

Re: Responding to Beggars

#133

Post by dkersten »

johnsea wrote: post #80
gioele wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you a problem with Bulgarian people or Bulgarian criminals? If you have a problem with Bulgarian people in general, then, well, that is called xenophobia or more simply racism. If you have a problem with Bulgarian criminals, then complain to your police force. How come you able to spot such criminals so easily while they cannot? Did you make precise and detailed reports to the police about cases you witnessed, e…

Read the parent post again, no problem with Bulgarian people in general. What's with your xenophobia/racism haunch? It is not unreasonable to discuss such effects due to relative open - e.g. compared to US - borders. Last year in Germany I myself saw 'gangs of beggars'. While not a problem, it annoys me when on touristic places you'll get asked for money every two minutes from one of the (romanian) women with child.…

It feels like an industry.

It is an industry. Most of these gangs are exactly that: organised gangs. In a recent documentary in Ireland, they studied the problem and even followed them back to their own countries (where they lived in mansions). One of the women they followed carried a baby around for 14 hours while begging and it turned out it wasn't even hers - a number of the women shared this baby as a tool to gain more money while begging.

A friend of mine once overheard a beggar talking on the phone complaining that he only made €500 that day...

Not all beggars are like this, of course. Some genuinely fell on hard times. I have no problem buying someone food or paying their bus fare (if I have the money), or donating money to charities which help these people directly, but I refuse to ever give someone who is on the street begging for money anything.

Re: Responding to Beggars

#134

Post by zaccus »

Some panhandlers really need money, and some don't. There's no way to know for sure which is which, and I can't afford to give money to everyone who asks for it. So the only "rational" solution is to not give money to panhandlers at all.

Of course, I don't follow that rule perfectly because saying no or ignoring somebody makes me feel like a dick. But I'm not going to pretend that giving money to a panhandler is ever a rational act.

Re: Responding to Beggars

#135

Post by barry-cotter »

eli wrote: post #122
barry-cotter wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the USA? No, there aren't. They're mentally ill or serious drug abusers. Also, your money can go a hell of a lot further and help a hell of a lot more people even in in the US. But you can save a life for about 800 dollars in the developing world. http://www.givewell.org/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/37f/efficient_charity/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/6z/purchase_fuzzies_and_utilons_sepa...

Wait, so are you saying it isn't possibly to help homeless people in the USA? Or that they don't deserve help? Either way, I think you are very wrong.

It is possible to help people who are homeless in the USA who are neither mentally ill nor drug abusers. The mentally ill are incapable of accepting or using the help available to them. The drug addicts prefer the drugs and being homeless to being off drugs. There is more than a little help available for people who want to quit drugs and if you want to see what kind of support is available for the homeless in the USA visit San Francisco, the only first world city I am aware of where one regularly has to dodge human faeces in the street.

I'm not saying they don't deserve help. I'm saying that your money can do more good elsewhere, which is not something I'm willing to argue as being blatantly obvious. If one subscribes to the idea that there is a continuum of "deserving" to "undeserving" poor most of the drug addicts fall under undeserving and the USA is no longer willing to imprison people indefinitely for being mentally ill so they're probably beyond help. Very possibly also better off because mental hospitals are the closest I have ever seen to Hell, but beyond help.

Re: Responding to Beggars

#136

Post by mpusr »

v0cab wrote: post #104
mpusr wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that may be so, but the actual beggars are not at fault, and this is important. simply because someone was not born within the borders of your country does not make them any less human. This is the point. A swedish life is worth no more or less than a romanian one. Your nationalist attitude is baseless. You happen to be born in sweden, they happen to be born in romania. If the tables were turned I'm sure you wouldn't…

The tables are turned. Someone born in Western Europe might well lead a life of poverty while a Japanese or South Korean person will have a great education, get a job straight out of university, and not want for material needs. Will South Korea or Japan donate their money to help such people, or allow them immigrate to their safe countries? They will not. Do you think the Chinese will?

So basically, you think we shouldn't have welfare because you're not allowed to immigrate to China.

Re: Responding to Beggars

#137

Post by sparknlaunch12 »

ExpiredLink wrote: post #43
sparknlaunch12 wrote: post #12

Is a beggar an analogy for a startup looking for funding?

and you are an angel.

Not yet. I only asked the question in context of this article being posted to Hacker News. I thought maybe the author was describing an approach to more than just qualifying requests for money from beggars.

Re: Responding to Beggars

#138

Post by v0cab »

mpusr wrote: post #136
v0cab wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tables are turned. Someone born in Western Europe might well lead a life of poverty while a Japanese or South Korean person will have a great education, get a job straight out of university, and not want for material needs. Will South Korea or Japan donate their money to help such people, or allow them immigrate to their safe countries? They will not. Do you think the Chinese will?

So basically, you think we shouldn't have welfare because you're not allowed to immigrate to China.

I don't know how you got that out of what I said. I think welfare is quite good.

Re: Responding to Beggars

#139

Post by spung »

This is what my parents have taught me to do as well.

It's also a possibility though that the beggar wanted to be efficient and accumulate more money for other fares throughout the day, just trying to be efficient.

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