Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Routine vaccinations drop among U.S. kindergartners for the third year in a row

statnews.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

131–140 of 234 posts

Re: Routine vaccinations drop among U.S. kindergartners for the third year in a row

#131

Post by mrphoebs »

realjhol wrote: post #102
ben_w wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We have been proven correct about every single one of these things No, you haven't. > natural immunity would provide far greater protection false > vaccines wouldn't prevent transmission, carried a non-zero risk of side effects "Prevent" and "non-zero" are weasel words, that sentence as written is true of literally every treatment and prophylactic in existence forever . But it does reduce the risk of transmission e…

>> natural immunity would provide far greater protection > false True: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2203965 > vaccines wouldn't prevent transmission, The vaccines were never tested to prevent transmission: https://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2022/10/12/pfizer-vaccine-not-tes... -- and indeed they do not prevent transmission, or infection for that matter. Many many people, from Joe Biden to my own mother have be…

Lockdowns did help flatten the curve, many countries health systems were overwhelmed regardless, but without lockdowns the fatalities and outcomes for severe cases would have been an order of magnitude worse.

-> personal experience: I survived only because I was able to get an ICU bed at the right time as did millions more in my country. Millions more didn't because the health systems were overwhelmed.

It's hard to take your argument in good faith when you offhandedly say stuff like this -> "A lot of that stuff turneded out to be fabricated, but it spooked a lot of folks."

Look at the hell china is going through right now and the hell we went through(India). The wounds are still deep and fresh, loved ones dying because they can't get a bed, or oxygen. Bodies rotting because crematoriums couldn't handle load and cities ran out of firewood.

I think there is room for discussion about the merits and demerits of various public/social policies around the pandemic without reducing it to a binary point of view and making it evidence based instead of offhandedly invalidating the pain and suffering of millions over the last few years as "fabricated".

Re: Routine vaccinations drop among U.S. kindergartners for the third year in a row

#132

Post by azherebtsov »

Xylakant wrote: post #69
fidgewidge wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alternative to the parents being the authority, is that the state is, but the state has lied constantly about everything related to COVID and children so that would be far worse. in Europe it’s mandatory to send your child to school - whether the parents want it or not. No it's not. It's mandatory to educate them. Home schooling exists in Europe and parents who think teachers at a school are teaching children thi…

No home schooling exists in germany - all children must go to a state-approved school and that school must follow the standard curriculum. There are a handful of possible exceptions - serious illness for example - but in the general case it’s not legal and may result in (partial) loss of custody. See for example https://www.lto.de/recht/nachrichten/n/olg-karlsruhe-5ufh322...

In Poland home shchooling is a thing. There are tens of thousands kids learning at home. They only need to come to school from time to time to do some tests. They have to pass mandatory exams after year 8 - for primary education and after year 12 for high school (yes, it is allowed to do high school education). To my best knowledge you do not have to provide any specific reasons why your kid is learning at home, the parents however need to provide evidence of theirs capacity to conduct that type of education.

Re: Routine vaccinations drop among U.S. kindergartners for the third year in a row

#133

Post by hotpotamus »

newsclues wrote: post #67
lawn wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that's what happens when conspiracy theories instill fear, uncertainty and doubt.

We had the news spreading fear, the need to bow to authorities and consumerism, and attacking anyone who tried to think for themselves. And you attack conspiracy theorists who turned out to be right about a number of aspects of the pandemic?

> We had the news spreading fear

I always wonder what people mean when they talk about "the news" or "the media". I don't watch any of the 24/7 cable stuff (I last had cable in 1999), but I get the impression its what actually drives the perception of whatever this unitary entity is believed to be thinking/scheming at any moment. So I'm somewhat blind/deaf to a lot of this zeitgeist, though I understand that like any media, they long ago cracked the code that negative engagement is more profitable, and so yes, scaremongering is part of the job, and so I tend to avoid it.

That said, I knew people who died from Covid, the latest just a few weeks ago. When my parents, who aren't young anymore got it, I was pretty fearful for them.

Re: Routine vaccinations drop among U.S. kindergartners for the third year in a row

#134

Post by realjhol »

Avamander wrote: post #121
realjhol wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> natural immunity would provide far greater protection > false True: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2203965 > vaccines wouldn't prevent transmission, The vaccines were never tested to prevent transmission: https://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2022/10/12/pfizer-vaccine-not-tes... -- and indeed they do not prevent transmission, or infection for that matter. Many many people, from Joe Biden to my own mother have be…

> The vaccines were never tested to prevent transmission Because it's an inevitable thing when people are less ill. It's dishonest to demand testing something like "people coughing less spread less" and then use that to pad the rest of your weak arguments with that - like the last sentence about efficacy (straight after the anecdotal). > Sweden never locked down, and their outcomes were better than most of the rest o…

> Because it's an inevitable thing when people are less ill. It's dishonest to demand testing something like "people coughing less spread less" and then use that to pad the rest of your weak arguments with that - like the last sentence about efficacy (straight after the anecdotal).

The context of this is that there were voices calling for coercing vaccination. My mother-in-law lost her job because she refused to have it. The sole justification offered was that the experts claimed to know that it would protect other people. Except they never knew that - it was guesswork, and we now know that the vaccines don't prevent transmission.

For example this linke @grjdiofgeriov shared:

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa2116597 "Although vaccination still lowers the risk of infection, similar viral loads in vaccinated and unvaccinated persons who are infected with the delta variant call into question the degree to which vaccination prevents transmission."

>> Sweden never locked down, and their outcomes were better than most of the rest of Europe

> Emphasis on the "were".

Not just were - they continue to be now. Their all-cause mortality has been far lower from start to finish, and they never had any kind of COVID-related crisis.

Equally, if you look across the world, there is simply no correlation between COVID policy and outcomes. None of the intereventions made any significant differentce.

> Whose fault is that when the good practices could have been followed but were not? Should have beaten them with a baton? Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Even with perfect practices, it wouldn't have made much difference. The virus was airbourne, endemic, and highly transmissible. In the same way, I can still smell a bonfire half a mile away mask or no mask.

It was purely security theatre. "Something must be done. This is something"

>> I hope they have, because it help further fortify their natural immunity.

> Yikes. The old adage about "what doesn't kill you" should end with "leaves scars" as it's definitely not so cut and dry to only "make you stronger".

No - not yikes. Their symptoms from COVID were zero. No scars. Nada. Nothing at all.

> It's a fundamental misunderstanding of science to expect random sentences (where most nuance has been filtered out from) to be irrevocably true.

I agree entirely, and this wouldn't have been a problem if governments hadn't used these half-baked ideas as a reason to coerce people to lock down, wear masks, or receive experimental medical treatments.

> They have been far less wrong than the rest.

Not at all. Again and again, the @realjhol model was far more accurate than the Imperial College model. Many such cases. Sad to see my alma mater fail so badly.

Re: Routine vaccinations drop among U.S. kindergartners for the third year in a row

#135

Post by blibble »

pclmulqdq wrote: post #117
blibble wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you are thinking of integrase, which is not present and there is no primer site on the mRNA for RT to operate if it was that easy for random bits of floating mRNA to integrate itself into your DNA then we'd never make it to the point of being born

I'm not suggesting that it's normal, easy, or within the everyday functions of a cell. The parent comment said "...it's not possible..." It demonstrably is possible, and has happened before in the genetic record of humans.

reverse transcriptase is not produced by human cells, it is simply not present in the cell

integrase is not produced by human cells, it is simply not present in the cell

the mRNA produced by the vaccine does not have the primer site for reverse transciptase to attach

if somehow RT did produce cDNA: it would not have the primer site for integrase to attach

this stuff is taught to 16 year olds

the probability of all of the above happening by random chance is as close to 0 as it is possible to get

and saying "hahaha, so IT IS POSSIBLE THEN, so it is gene therapy!!!" is the level of reasoning and debate one would expect from a small child

Re: Routine vaccinations drop among U.S. kindergartners for the third year in a row

#136

Post by throw0101c »

SangareEel wrote: post #123
watwut wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it is fault of those who push against vaccines super hard for political reasons. It is absurd to blame anyone else at the point where we are. There are groups who are intentionally trying to convince people to not vaccinate. When people listen to them, it is theor fault.

[flagged]

> It's the fault of those who push vaccines super hard for political reasons.

> A vaccine we know doesn't prevent infection, transmission, sickness or death.

This does not match reality. The more political right someone is, the more anti-vaxx someone is likely to me, the less likely they would get vaccinated; e.g., areas that lean more towards voting for Trump have higher COVID death rates:

"COVID-19 Deaths Among Older Adults During the Delta Surge Were Higher in States with Lower Vaccination Rates"

* https://www.kff.org/policy-watch/covid-19-deaths-among-older...

"Pro-Trump counties now have far higher COVID death rates. Misinformation is to blame"

* https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/12/05/1059828...

"The Changing Political Geography of COVID-19 Over the Last Two Years"

* https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2022/03/03/the-changing...

"Covid death rates are higher among Republicans than Democrats, mounting evidence shows"

* https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/covid-death-rates...

"How Many Republicans Died Because the GOP Turned Against Vaccines?"

* https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2022/12/covid-dea...

Re: Routine vaccinations drop among U.S. kindergartners for the third year in a row

#137

Post by danenania »

knaik94 wrote: post #125
danenania wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fyi, speaking as a parent: as it relates to ADHD and giving young children powerful psychoactive drugs, the fact that you only seem aware of one side of an extremely complex and contentious issue makes me disinterested in your advice on this or any other parenting topic. The kinds of people I look to for advice understand the arguments on both sides and, while they may have a position one way or the other, are not ze…

As someone that has a diagnosis and takes medication for it and and an educator, I understand better than most both sides of the situation. I apologize if it seems like I don't understand both sides. In asian culture there is still a very very strong stigma surrounding treatment for mental health issues. Sometimes hesitancy is cultural and other times it's religious and other times it's pride. My own struggles growin…

I appreciate your response and being willing to reconsider.

It’s great that you found an approach that worked for you. But yes, I would still suggest humility in assuming that you can identify when the same approach will work for someone else, especially when that someone is a child and the parents, who know that child better than anyone else, don’t share your conviction. There are good reasons to be skeptical about diagnosing young children with ADHD except in very rare circumstances.

Re: Routine vaccinations drop among U.S. kindergartners for the third year in a row

#138

Post by _heimdall »

rscho wrote: post #119
fidgewidge wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it would have effects on people's health but those effects would be both positive and negative. They'd both have to be summed together, but even then, health isn't everything. A healthy society run by totalitarians is still a deeply unpleasant society to live in. Whooping cough vaccines and vaccines in general would still exist without public health. The difference is that it would be an individual decision to b…

There are very few public health interventions that are deleterious to even a fraction of the population, because the prime directive is "first, do no harm" and that's a very much entrenched principle of public health. Regarding vaccines, I chose the whooping cough example on purpose. This vaccine is only 60% efficient. The risk of newborns being killed or gravely ill would be highly increased if used only at the ind…

> the prime directive is "first, do no harm" and that's a very much entrenched principle of public health.

Covid response made it clear that this directive went out the window. Practitioners in the medical industry may whole-heartedly believe and follow this goal, but public health is now much too political for it.

Plenty of examples in the US. To name a few: Faucci's masking debacle

New York City's handling of elderly patients during the peak of their outbreak

approval of vaccines under the age of 5 after a study with only 30 participants

Biden's holiday speech from the Oval Office attacking anyone who didn't get vaccinated

Initial vaccine trials data bastardized by public health officials, claiming vaccines stop the spread when that was never tested.

The list goes on, but public health has been made a political game driven by few who they know what's best and are willing to saw what they think will get compliance rather than sharing what is and isn't known and doing no harm by fostering another core principle of informed consent.

Re: Routine vaccinations drop among U.S. kindergartners for the third year in a row

#139

Post by Demotio »

fidgewidge wrote: post #82
roenxi wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have very mixed feelings about this policy. I don't want my government taking my money in taxes, then deploying it as welfare conditional on unrelated policies. Particularly because once the have this leverage they'll make more widespread use of it. Some (all, in fact) of the anti-vaxxers I know are extremely upstanding small businesspeople. I can imagine in the next pandemic that (1) the government will tax them h…

[flagged]

You are saying a lot for just being very anti social, anti human etc.

No a public health system is not totaliarism. A gov has the responsibility to take care of all people.

This also means that the individual might need to play a game they don't always like. That's how a good stable society works.

And just because you are (I guess) in the position to pay for medical, your neighbor might not. What society would that be that you buy the kids vaccines for yours and your neighbor kids die?

And frankly just because you made it so long on this planet is not just your archiement. It's the school system which exists because of everyone before you, the health system, the road and everything which allowed you to actually drive to your work, etc etc etc.

You are also alive due to vaccines, due to regulations which forces parents to do health checkups, etc.

The only reason you can use the internet is a stable functioning society.

This independent dream of yours is arrogant and ignorant.

Re: Routine vaccinations drop among U.S. kindergartners for the third year in a row

#140

Post by hotpotamus »

nickpp wrote: post #2

Maybe this is what happens when you try to force people do something, even if for their own good? Like some sort of resistant force born in response to the force applied? Added: I am totally pro-vaccine as an extraordinary medical tool, just trying to understand this phenomenon hoping we won't make the same strategic mistakes again.

I wonder what my life would be like if no one had ever tried to force me to do anything. I'd probably describe myself as deeply unambitious and as such I probably wouldn't have accomplished much without some prods, and I think I agree with you that I resent all of it. All the expectations about wearing the socially acceptable clothing, all the weirdness about expectations from your neighbors about proper behavior and lawn/house upkeep, and all the societal expectations and laws are incredibly stifling and seem like a waste of time and effort. But you probably wouldn't like what people would get up to without them.
Post reply on HN