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Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

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Re: Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

#131

Post by HPsquared »

lazide wrote: post #53
Arubis wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Possibly amateurish take: dumping water on an alkali metal seems like not a great idea (unless you want _more_ fire, in which case by all means go for it)

The good news is, water is cold (generally), doesn't combust (generally), and there is a LOT of it. So spraying water, while it can make it spicier for a bit, allows you to suck away enough heat fast enough that it works okayish. It's the scalable, but not ideal, solution generally. Current guidance is don't bother with anything else, just spray it until the flames stop.

I wonder if they could add a "water flooding port" to the battery packs, to allow firefighters to hook up a water hose and flood that battery compartment directly. Seems like it'd be much more targeted/effective/efficient than trying to spray the exterior.

Re: Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

#132

Post by HPsquared »

trhway wrote: post #86
elihu wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've wondered if maybe it's possible to pack batteries with a relatively harmless material that undergoes a very energy-intensive phase change. Water's the obvious choice, but it tends to drain away rather than stick around long enough to turn to steam. Maybe there's a better material, or ways to design battery cooling systems so that a burning battery turns into a very efficient steam generator, and thus can be cool…

>Water's the obvious choice, but it tends to drain away rather than stick around long enough to turn to steam. just add something gel-forming into the water or some fiber/dust (even just gluten flour) that absorbs a lot of water and turns into kind of watery dough.

Problem with that is, it might block the addition of more water. If the 'way in' for the water gets blocked, but the battery continues to burn.

Re: Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

#133

Post by IaacForHire »

spyke112 wrote: post #99
chmod775 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A fire extinguisher large enough for a 500wh battery weighs 12 kilos - most people can barely lift that! Almost everyone can lift that overhead . 90% of men and more than 50% of women can lift a bit more than twice that overhead. It's a common job requirement. There would have to be something really wrong for an adult to struggle lifting 12kg. That's a large watermelon, and unlike the melon, the fire extinguisher g…

Where on earth do you get 12 kg watermelons? Genuine curious, the ones imported here in Denmark I would guess are big if they're around 3 kg.

In Istanbul the watermelons we get from the grocery store are about 4kg, the ones we buy from the road-side watermelon trucks in the summer can be 10-15kg (if their scales aren't rigged).

Re: Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

#134

Post by nottorp »

rich_sasha wrote: post #110

I'm wondering, in a world where we use LiPo batteries to store seasonal grid level power from renewables (i.e. overproduce from solar in summer and store til winter), how big will the battery facilities be? And how bad would the fire be as a result? It's not immediately obvious to me that these will be hugely safer than nuclear plants. Especially since LiPo battery fires seem to be much more frequent than nuclear pla…

> where we use LiPo batteries to store seasonal grid level power from renewables

Can we build enough LiPo batteries to store energy at that scale? Not so sure.

Re: Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

#135

Post by unwind »

Double_a_92 wrote: post #102
spyke112 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where on earth do you get 12 kg watermelons? Genuine curious, the ones imported here in Denmark I would guess are big if they're around 3 kg.

Warmer countries. E.g. in Italy the common water melons are at least half a meter long.

Sitting even further north than Denmark, the OP did say that their melons are imported. Although it's possible to grow them in Denmark (especially in a greenhouse) perhaps it's not commercially viable.

Regardless, I guess the OP just needs to find a better grocer, local "fruit mongers" up here in frigid Sweden certainly routinely handle watermelons that are way bigger than 3 kg. :)

Re: Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

#136

Post by HPsquared »

rich_sasha wrote: post #110

I'm wondering, in a world where we use LiPo batteries to store seasonal grid level power from renewables (i.e. overproduce from solar in summer and store til winter), how big will the battery facilities be? And how bad would the fire be as a result? It's not immediately obvious to me that these will be hugely safer than nuclear plants. Especially since LiPo battery fires seem to be much more frequent than nuclear pla…

Depends on the facility design: whether it's possible for the whole place to go up at once, or if it's divided into sections that are isolated from each other. Even individual batteries and cells can be isolated from each other if there's enough space.

Space and weight, and firefighting ability are much less of a constraint in these types of facilities than they are in an EV battery.

Re: Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

#137

Post by ClumsyPilot »

z991 wrote: post #66
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #19

Lithium battery fire cannot be 'put out'- in a normal sense. A fuel tank of petrol needs oxygen to burn, and when you spray foam on it your cut off the oxygen and the fire stops. A battery already contains energy, all the chemicals required for the reaction are already present, and once the energy release starts, sealing it from the environment does not stop the process. Ebike and drone batteries are large enough to…

> there is no 'battery safety box' that I could readilly buy Take a look at Bat-Safe LiPo boxes. They are designed to contain the heat and prevent your entire house from going up from a drone battery fire.

okay, their largest box is actually big enough to deal with am ebike battery, this could work!

Re: Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

#138

Post by nottorp »

iggldiggl wrote: post #117
Eleison23 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My city has a recycling center for household products, but it requires the use of a motor vehicle. I have been unsuccessful in using taxi or ride-sharing services to drop off items. Unfortunately, the inflexible vehicle requirement is a deal breaker for me and many of my neighbors.

> it requires the use of a motor vehicle as in "it's miles away from the next bus stop, so walking is impractical", or as in "if you don't show up in a motor vehicle, we don't let you in"?

Probably out of town. And even in town, it's one thing to walk to it with a dead phone and another to walk with a dead TV :)

Re: Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

#139

Post by scatters »

lm28469 wrote: post #128
londons_explore wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What chemicals are in lithium batteries that are toxic? I was under the impression that while lithium batteries were dangerous due to explosion/flame risk, the actual ingredients weren't particularly toxic?

It doesn't take much for something to be toxic to soil, wildlife, &c. > Lithium batteries contain potentially toxic materials including metals, such as copper, nickel, and lead, and organic chemicals, such as toxic and flammable electrolytes containing LiClO4, LiBF4, and LiPF6. Also, from the article: > an estimated 180,000 to 200,000 pounds of lithium ion batteries stored in the warehouse caught fire, Almost anythin…

Lavender essential oil is also toxic:

> blurred vision, difficulty breathing, burning pain in the throat, burns to the eye, confusion, decreased level of consciousness, diarrhea (watery, bloody), stomach pain, vomiting, and rash

Re: Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

#140

Post by dotancohen »

Gravityloss wrote: post #126
colaco wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same in Portugal. Ours can be very big.

I guess we can conclude a watermelon is a really bad weight reference unit!

  $ units 
  You have: 1 watermelon
  You want: grapes
        * 907.19
        / 0.0011023
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