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A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication

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131–140 of 187 posts

Re: A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is a stretch to think that this is a money making endeavor. Scams to make money like MLMs and Scientology prioritize payment over adherence to the tenants of the organization. And the leaders are paid millions of dollars and live luxurious lives. AA is more like the Salvation Army. It is a group that clearly believes things that are not scientifically true, but most people join with good intentions.

I don't know much about the Salvation Army beyond hearing their name in passing, but what are their scientifically false beliefs? I looked at the "Beliefs" section of their Wikipedia page but couldn't find, after 1 min or so of looking, a clearly stated scientifically false belief. Are you referring to this, which sounds similar to AA? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Salvation_Army#Adult_Rehab...

From Wikipedia: "In November 2013 it was made known that the Salvation Army was referring LGBT individuals to one of several conversion therapy groups."

The American Medical Association has never suggested there is scientific data proving this therapy to be successful at changing sexual orientation, in fact the scientific data proves the opposite, it is harmful.

Re: A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, in this case "their agenda" is helping people out of deep addiction. What do you gain by opposing that? We aren't disinterested third parties here pushing an agenda on other people, this is US, working for ourselves. Who are you? Expecting people to abandon a belief that they can plausibly claim has saved their life because it isn't scientifically true is a radical ideology . Very much good has come from it, tr…

there are a few layers to "AA". first there's the philosophy itself and all the associated dogma and religious aspects. I found this pretty weird and not my cup of tea, but I have no problem with it existing and people adhering to it if it helps them. then there's the community. thirteenth stepping aside, these are mostly people genuinely trying to help themselves and others. I noticed some odd things, like some AA m…

Yes, your biggest issue with it is also my biggest issue with it. It holds this spot in the cultural consciousness as like, the only/best general-purpose addiction program when it absolutely is not that.

Judges and mental health professionals sending people to AA without specifically understanding its practices and how those will help that individual is terrible and I hate that it's as common as it is.

And speaking from within the US, a lot of the weird AA-isms I think are adaptions to our fucked up healthcare system and general attitudes towards personal agency and addiction. No one is picking people up off the streets and giving them top-notch medicalized in-patient addiction treatment you know? AA isn't ideal or even necessarily very good for a lot of things. But it is there and it is free, and no matter how fucked up your life is they won't turn you away. Can't really say that about many other treatment paradigms right now.

Re: A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"...it is my belief that the treatment is unconscionable and inhumane." Likewise. Fortunately, I'm not an alcoholic nor have I ever been one but it's always been my understanding that disulfiram was a pretty brutal way of dealing with the problem. I've seen pharmacology texts written in the 1960s warn of the dangers of disulfiram (I had the impression that by the end of the 1950s it was already recognized as a brute…

My recollection is that accumulation of aldehyde is also the danger of consuming methanol.

[deleted]

Re: A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication

#134
post #7

Given the extremely strong negative reaction to alcohol that patients who are taking Disulfiram experience and given that this is apparently the sole effect that alcohol abuse cessation treatment using it relies on, it is my belief that the treatment is unconscionable and inhumane. I quit drinking after more than 25 years of problematic drinking using naltrexone (The Sinclair Method) and, given my experience with alc…

"I urge people who have a problem with drinking and wish to quit, who for whatever reason do not feel that 12 step programs like Alcoholics Anonymous" I urge people to see an addiction specialist first. Do not see AA first. See a doctor asap. This disease is serious and has a high fatality rate. AA meetings are like a club after you have it under control (EG. don't attend drunk). Disulfiram: An old military drug. Thi…

"Rehab: Good short term, bad long term. Rehab failure rate is over %90."

That's if you can even get the person into rehab at all! Just before last Christmas we buried a good longtime friend and colleague who'd died of liver cirrhosis. Nothing we did could get him into rehab.

'So what' you may say - he was just one more of many thousands. The trouble was that he was also an organic chemist by training yet even with this insight he couldn't stop his alcohol consumption. It was tragic really.

I've come to the conclusion that those of us who aren't alcoholics have little or no conception of how the mind of an alcoholic works or why he/she finds it necessary to consume alcohol in such damaging quantities. Simply, we cannot get into their minds and perceive the world from their perspective. This is a huge problem as it often stops friends and or family from being effective helpers.

As I see it, there's a perceptual barrier that separates alcoholics from those who aren't alcoholic. It's not a simple matter for a person who is not an alcoholic to put himself/herself into an alcoholic's mindset especially so if the alcoholic has no serious underlying psychological problems (if he/she did have then perhaps the person who's trying to help could envisage the alcoholic's state of mind - that of, say, depression, etc.).

Essentially, even those of us who aren't alcoholics but who've experienced the effects of alcohol can't use that experience (of say, being drunk) as an analog to understand the alcoholic's mindset as both perceptions of the effects of alcohol are fundamentally different.

Take my experience, I recall getting badly drunk in my student days and it was very unpleasant, since then on rare ocassions I've been what you'd call 'merry' from the effects of alcohol. Nevertheless, I find the effect of even a little alcohol both disturbing and mind-dulling and I deliberately avoid getting into that state. On the other hand, the alcoholic either experiences different physical effects from alcohol than I do and or his/her visceral perception of those physical effects of the alcohol are very different to mine.

It seems to me that this difference in percetion between the alcoholic and us who aren't alcoholics is one of the reasons why we're often unsuccessful in helping them. If we cannot communicate on their level then we're at a disadvantage when we try to help them and or offer them support.

That was what I experienced when I tried to help my former friend and colleague. Even though I knew him well and had done so for many years, it was clear to me that when it came to discussing alcohol that we spoke a different language. I'd hasten to add that at no time did I patronize him, nor was I intrusively paternalistic towards him. Essentially there was no effective communication between us on the matter of alcohol.

Re: A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication

#135
Maybe a useful (if redundant) part of a multipronged approach for self-medicators but can't touch the reality-avoidance component of addiction - that maladaptive behavioral pattern which has more in common with personality disorders than "chemical imbalance".

Re: A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Antabuse can lead to death or dangerous health problems." So can a slew of other drugs. You should see the drug risks for stuff folks take for autoimmune disorders. It isn't just up to the doctor to mitigate the risks: Patients must do their part as well (blood tests and so on). And most importantly: So can alcoholism. Alcoholism kills slowly. Withdrawal can kill not-so-slowly. Somehow, do you think the doctor is no…

> So can a slew of other drugs Dr isn't legally liable for drugs you find on your own.

I was speaking of prescription drugs here, the very ones you have to visit the doctor to get. I thought with the context that would have been clear.

Re: A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication

#137
It's quite a stretch to say that Disulfiram cures alcoholism. It inhibits metabolism and produces some nasty side effects if you drink alcohol. But it doesn't "cure" alcoholism. If you want to drink and don't have close monitoring to enforce taking the medication, you just stop taking.

Re: A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I urge people who have a problem with drinking and wish to quit, who for whatever reason do not feel that 12 step programs like Alcoholics Anonymous" I urge people to see an addiction specialist first. Do not see AA first. See a doctor asap. This disease is serious and has a high fatality rate. AA meetings are like a club after you have it under control (EG. don't attend drunk). Disulfiram: An old military drug. Thi…

"Rehab: Good short term, bad long term. Rehab failure rate is over %90." That's if you can even get the person into rehab at all! Just before last Christmas we buried a good longtime friend and colleague who'd died of liver cirrhosis. Nothing we did could get him into rehab. 'So what' you may say - he was just one more of many thousands. The trouble was that he was also an organic chemist by training yet even with th…

>”I find the effect of even a little alcohol both disturbing and mind-dulling and I deliberately avoid getting into that state. On the other hand, the alcoholic either experiences different physical effects from alcohol than I do and or his/her visceral perception of those physical effects of the alcohol are very different to mine.”

As an alcoholic I think an often overlooked aspect is the opposite of this: how it feels to NOT have the alcohol.

Re: A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication

#139
post #57
post #7

Given the extremely strong negative reaction to alcohol that patients who are taking Disulfiram experience and given that this is apparently the sole effect that alcohol abuse cessation treatment using it relies on, it is my belief that the treatment is unconscionable and inhumane. I quit drinking after more than 25 years of problematic drinking using naltrexone (The Sinclair Method) and, given my experience with alc…

Interesting side note, shaggy mane mushroom has a similar effect to disulfuram.

I think you mean Coprinopsis atramentaria, common name Inkycap, not the similar Coprinus comatus (Shaggymane).

Re: A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"...it is my belief that the treatment is unconscionable and inhumane." Likewise. Fortunately, I'm not an alcoholic nor have I ever been one but it's always been my understanding that disulfiram was a pretty brutal way of dealing with the problem. I've seen pharmacology texts written in the 1960s warn of the dangers of disulfiram (I had the impression that by the end of the 1950s it was already recognized as a brute…

I use Disulfiram and it has been a godsend for me. It takes away the choice, I am physically unable to drink, my mind makes this easy for me, it's simply not an option so I don't even consider it. I realize it's not for everyone but it has saved me. I had to go out of country for it, doctors do not like to prescribe it. I hoard it.

I'm truly glad it works for you and nothing that I or others say should distract you from that course.

I know it works for some people and I knew that before I posted that comment. Again, that's truly great for them. However, it's my understanding that all too many do not have your level of self-perception nor do they have the same level of self-control that you do and so they end up on a horrible carousel ride until they fall off - big-time.

This seems to be the major reason why doctors do not want to prescribe it. The fact that these concerns about disulfiram have been reoccurring in the literature since the 1960s is pretty much proof of the fact.

I suppose the real problem is the difficulty in determining who will actually benefit from it and who will not, and that's an age old problem that medicine hasn't solved as yet (or as I reckon won't take the necessary time with individual patients to determine those who are suitable - thus it all gets chucked into the 'too-hard' basket).

Just keep at it. Best of luck.

:-)

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