A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication • Hacker News Board

Re: A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication

#111

Post by Spooky23 » Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 3:59 PM UTC

photochemsyn wrote: post #103

giraffe_lady wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah that's exactly what I'm saying. And if the burn-in-hell model was demonstrably more effective than a medical model I would endorse it. Wouldn't you? What's the value in pushing a scientific model if it isn't actually more practically effective at helping the people who are asking for help? And look, I'm not saying the medical model isn't more effective. But "new evidence" isn't always easy to apply even when it…

What I object to is religious types trying to use bad science to back up their agenda. Science is not a matter of faith, and it's a complete perversion of the basic concept of scientific inquiry to promote false claims simply because of their claimed utility. That's a dishonest and manipulative strategy at best, and I doubt any good will come of it. Of course, science provides no ultimate answers of the type religiou…

There’s shades of grey with many things. Plenty of drugs are effective at rates marginally higher than placebo.

Re: A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication

#112

Post by gitfan86 » Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 4:10 PM UTC

photochemsyn wrote: post #110

giraffe_lady wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, in this case "their agenda" is helping people out of deep addiction. What do you gain by opposing that? We aren't disinterested third parties here pushing an agenda on other people, this is US, working for ourselves. Who are you? Expecting people to abandon a belief that they can plausibly claim has saved their life because it isn't scientifically true is a radical ideology . Very much good has come from it, tr…

Could it be that one of AA's goals is the creation of a population of donors to keep their organization funded, just like any other organized religious group? This would explain the reluctance to admit that alcohol addiction is not a 'lifelong disease' that requires lifetime committment to AA, wouldn't it? Regardless, promoting bogus scientific claims in the name of social good does actual harm to people. It's one of…

I think it is a stretch to think that this is a money making endeavor.

Scams to make money like MLMs and Scientology prioritize payment over adherence to the tenants of the organization. And the leaders are paid millions of dollars and live luxurious lives. AA is more like the Salvation Army. It is a group that clearly believes things that are not scientifically true, but most people join with good intentions.

Re: A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication

#113

Post by tanseydavid » Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 4:15 PM UTC

photochemsyn wrote: post #103

giraffe_lady wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah that's exactly what I'm saying. And if the burn-in-hell model was demonstrably more effective than a medical model I would endorse it. Wouldn't you? What's the value in pushing a scientific model if it isn't actually more practically effective at helping the people who are asking for help? And look, I'm not saying the medical model isn't more effective. But "new evidence" isn't always easy to apply even when it…

What I object to is religious types trying to use bad science to back up their agenda. Science is not a matter of faith, and it's a complete perversion of the basic concept of scientific inquiry to promote false claims simply because of their claimed utility. That's a dishonest and manipulative strategy at best, and I doubt any good will come of it. Of course, science provides no ultimate answers of the type religiou…

> and I doubt any good will come of it.

You seem to express contempt without prior investigation.

I can assure you that much good has come of it.

Re: A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication

#114

Post by qorrect » Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 4:16 PM UTC

hilbert42 wrote: post #102

Quequau wrote: post #7

Given the extremely strong negative reaction to alcohol that patients who are taking Disulfiram experience and given that this is apparently the sole effect that alcohol abuse cessation treatment using it relies on, it is my belief that the treatment is unconscionable and inhumane. I quit drinking after more than 25 years of problematic drinking using naltrexone (The Sinclair Method) and, given my experience with alc…

"...it is my belief that the treatment is unconscionable and inhumane." Likewise. Fortunately, I'm not an alcoholic nor have I ever been one but it's always been my understanding that disulfiram was a pretty brutal way of dealing with the problem. I've seen pharmacology texts written in the 1960s warn of the dangers of disulfiram (I had the impression that by the end of the 1950s it was already recognized as a brute…

I use Disulfiram and it has been a godsend for me. It takes away the choice, I am physically unable to drink, my mind makes this easy for me, it's simply not an option so I don't even consider it. I realize it's not for everyone but it has saved me.

I had to go out of country for it, doctors do not like to prescribe it. I hoard it.

Re: A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication

#115

Post by tanseydavid » Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 4:18 PM UTC

photochemsyn wrote: post #110

giraffe_lady wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, in this case "their agenda" is helping people out of deep addiction. What do you gain by opposing that? We aren't disinterested third parties here pushing an agenda on other people, this is US, working for ourselves. Who are you? Expecting people to abandon a belief that they can plausibly claim has saved their life because it isn't scientifically true is a radical ideology . Very much good has come from it, tr…

Could it be that one of AA's goals is the creation of a population of donors to keep their organization funded, just like any other organized religious group? This would explain the reluctance to admit that alcohol addiction is not a 'lifelong disease' that requires lifetime committment to AA, wouldn't it? Regardless, promoting bogus scientific claims in the name of social good does actual harm to people. It's one of…

Rather than engage in wild speculation why not attend some actual AA meetings?

Open meetings permit anyone to attend as a visitor.

Re: A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication

#116

Post by giraffe_lady » Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 4:24 PM UTC

photochemsyn wrote: post #110

giraffe_lady wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, in this case "their agenda" is helping people out of deep addiction. What do you gain by opposing that? We aren't disinterested third parties here pushing an agenda on other people, this is US, working for ourselves. Who are you? Expecting people to abandon a belief that they can plausibly claim has saved their life because it isn't scientifically true is a radical ideology . Very much good has come from it, tr…

Could it be that one of AA's goals is the creation of a population of donors to keep their organization funded, just like any other organized religious group? This would explain the reluctance to admit that alcohol addiction is not a 'lifelong disease' that requires lifetime committment to AA, wouldn't it? Regardless, promoting bogus scientific claims in the name of social good does actual harm to people. It's one of…

I don't think you have much if any firsthand experience with how these orgs actually do work.

It's especially funny because I am knowledgable on this subject, sympathetic to your concerns, had time and energy this morning to go into depth on the details and problems of AA and how I have chosen to engage with them over the years, and why so many of us continue to.

If you had wanted to learn anything about the day to day fights against addiction as they are experienced, contradictions and all, this was a great opportunity. But you just couldn't get over this specific hangup of yours, and pissed it away. Good luck out there man I hope you never need us but we'll be here if you do.

Re: A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication

#117

Post by dclusin » Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 4:28 PM UTC

QuantumYeti wrote: post #109

throwaway20382 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I urge people who have a problem with drinking and wish to quit, who for whatever reason do not feel that 12 step programs like Alcoholics Anonymous" I urge people to see an addiction specialist first. Do not see AA first. See a doctor asap. This disease is serious and has a high fatality rate. AA meetings are like a club after you have it under control (EG. don't attend drunk). Disulfiram: An old military drug. Thi…

Another problem with AA is you don't know who is there voluntarily trying to get better, and who is there because they're a physically abusive alcoholic that was court-ordered to be there. There was also an uncomfortable amount of "thirteenth stepping" going on in my groups, where the single males running them ended up in relationships with women in the groups.

Kind of like vcs and startup founders who use their status to “mentor” women in tech just to try and get in their pants. Predation is not unique or exclusive to any organization or group.

Re: A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication

#118

Post by giraffe_lady » Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 4:32 PM UTC

gitfan86 wrote: post #96

giraffe_lady wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't speak for all of AA obviously but I've been heavily involved in it for decades now. This is definitely one of those "all models are wrong but some models are useful" situations with the allergy thing. Most individuals either find that model sufficiently useful that they don't need to expand it. Or, they're more or less fully aware of the gaps but still find that model useful. Or they don't find it useful and…

I really appreciate your response and respect your experience. I'm very happy for people that have been able to make positive changes in their lives and I'm not suggesting anyone stop doing AA if it works for them. It would be great if there was a sister organization to AA that was more of a group therapy session, without the spirituality and alcohol abstinence components. But maybe that wouldn't work, since there wo…

There's one called Smart Recovery that is more along those lines. They put a lot of effort into keeping their practice in line with the state of the art of mainstream mental health and scientific practice around addiction, and are explicitly secular.

They're based around harm reduction, so no day-counting or rigid definition of sobriety like AA which honestly is wonderful and AA could (and does!) learn a lot from it. Alcoholics already carry a lot of shame, increasing it isn't helpful imo.

It doesn't have the reach or widespread cultural awareness that AA does but they still seem pretty common. I think AA is only really a good fit for people who are already religious or are open to becoming so. Otherwise I generally do suggest people try smart recovery first.

Re: A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication

#119

Post by holler » Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 4:33 PM UTC

throwaway20382 wrote: post #53

Quequau wrote: post #7

Given the extremely strong negative reaction to alcohol that patients who are taking Disulfiram experience and given that this is apparently the sole effect that alcohol abuse cessation treatment using it relies on, it is my belief that the treatment is unconscionable and inhumane. I quit drinking after more than 25 years of problematic drinking using naltrexone (The Sinclair Method) and, given my experience with alc…

"I urge people who have a problem with drinking and wish to quit, who for whatever reason do not feel that 12 step programs like Alcoholics Anonymous" I urge people to see an addiction specialist first. Do not see AA first. See a doctor asap. This disease is serious and has a high fatality rate. AA meetings are like a club after you have it under control (EG. don't attend drunk). Disulfiram: An old military drug. Thi…

> You will be rejected literally by tens of potential sponsors until one says yes (hang in there!)

That's not true at all, but it's a club with millions of people. Other than that appreciate your breakdown.

Re: A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication

#120

Post by QuercusMax » Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 4:36 PM UTC

whalesalad wrote: post #79

Anecdotally I’ve heard a number of stories involving the use of psychedelics to treat alcohol and smoking addiction.

I know friends who report that drinking after taking microdoses or psilocybin is highly unpleasant and makes them want to vomit. Also the urge to drink is much reduced. This effect seems to last at least a few days.