Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen • Hacker News Board

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#131

Post by fiftyfifty » Wed, Jul 28, 2021, 4:23 PM UTC

b112 wrote: post #108

WhompingWindows wrote: post #44

The Japanese car companies have done pretty poorly in the 2010's in supporting the energy transition. Toyota has been extremely slow to adapt after the Prius, which makes sense because of their ridiculously large volume of sales of basic, gas-efficient passenger vehicles. I give Toyota big props for the Prius, which was the original Green Vehicle 15-20 years ago, and still is a HUGE player in the efficiency space. II…

Toyota, Hyundai and Honda have all bet on H2. That's just as green, and electric as a Tesla. The tech works, refuels 10x faster than any battery based car, but so far no adoption outside of europe and asian countries. That's a phenomenal achievement. They chose wrong maybe, but they chose, and chose a path they though most viable. To claim they aren't in the game is beyond unfair.

Tesla invested a significant amount of money into building out a charging network for their cars. Toyota has been selling fuel cell vehicles for longer than Tesla has been in existence and they've made no such effort to create a network of hydrogen fueling stations. Even now with the threat of battery electric vehicles becoming the next platform for personal transportation Toyota continues to sit on it's hands when it comes to supporting it's own technology. Even their lobbying efforts aren't around trying to push hydrogen, it's around protecting their hybrid and gasoline vehicle business. Their actual efforts around hydrogen vehicles tells you everything you need to know: it's not viable and they know it. Toyota could be selling as many Mirais as Tesla sells vehicles, the demand is clearly there and people would pay a hefty price to get them like they do for Teslas. So why don't they?

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#132

Post by KMnO4 » Wed, Jul 28, 2021, 4:23 PM UTC

anonuser123456 wrote: post #116

Causality1 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be nice if Toyota actually had any interest in plug in hybrids. Their only one, the Prius Prime, is more expensive than its competitors and offers less than half their range. What's the point of getting a PHEV if I still spend half my commute running on gasoline?

This year they introduced the RAV4 prime, with 48 miles electric. The Prius prime is still in it's initial design iteration. Major updates occur typically every 7 years for auto manufacturers, so one would expect a new, improved range Prius prime somewhere in the 2023 range.

48 miles is probably good enough for 95%+ of people. Also worth noting that that’s higher than any other PHEV in its class (SUV).

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#133

Post by BoorishBears » Wed, Jul 28, 2021, 4:24 PM UTC

tsudounym wrote: post #112

BoorishBears wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 2nd Gen Chevy Volt was the Model 3 we deserved, but couldn't appreciate. 40-50 miles EV range meant that most people would have an EV most of the time, and use gas only on one off trips. And while people 10 years behind on ICE advancements would immediately start yelling about dragging around a dead weight ICE all day, modern ICEs are incredibly light, efficient, and reliable in the type of application the Volt h…

The Nissan e-power series is better - the gas engine only powers the electric motor which gives you a full-EV experience when driving. Hybrids need to start distancing themselves from the Prius and promote the insane 0-60 times that EVs are capable of now.

How is that better?

The Volt was able to use the ICE to improve peak output directly, with fewer drivetrain losses.

e-power is a cost saving measure, not an advancement

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#134

Post by tonyedgecombe » Wed, Jul 28, 2021, 4:24 PM UTC

mobiuscog wrote: post #109

There are still huge numbers of car owners who do not have off-site parking to charge EVs. Unless EV public charging is able to 'refuel' completely in a couple of minutes, going 100% electric is just not feasible. There is no way most governments will be able to provide suitable infrastructure in the near future.

You could incentivise employers to provide charging at work, that would solve the problem for the majority.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#135

Post by chipsa » Wed, Jul 28, 2021, 4:25 PM UTC

JKCalhoun wrote: post #105

nkingsy wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if these arguments take into account decreased battery life with a smaller battery in a plug in hybrid. From what I know about li-ion, the larger battery should expect many more charge cycles before degradation than the smaller one, given the same power draw. There would have to be some kind of argument that the bigger battery leaves capacity on the table during its life somehow, which would mean the battery…

My laymen understanding is that all EV batteries are composed of lots of smaller cells. So a larger Tesla battery is simply more cells, not larger ones. That would put EV's and hybrids on the same level.

Generally speaking, yes, a larger battery with the same technology is more cells, not larger cells. But the larger battery will use less of each cell's capacity for a given distance driven. So it will cycle each battery less, comparatively.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#136

Post by namdnay » Wed, Jul 28, 2021, 4:25 PM UTC

winternett wrote: post #117

Causality1 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be nice if Toyota actually had any interest in plug in hybrids. Their only one, the Prius Prime, is more expensive than its competitors and offers less than half their range. What's the point of getting a PHEV if I still spend half my commute running on gasoline?

3 major problems none of the EV evangelists are addressing about with EVs are 1. What happens to all the giant lithium batteries on these vehicles after they reach end of life? 2. How will people be able to evacuate a city or state in an emergency situation when charging/electric supply is not present (which is always likely to happen)? 3. Coal burning infrastructure is still inextricably involved in generating the p…

> Coal burning infrastructure is still inextricably involved in generating the power to charge these vehicles

only in countries which haven't yet decarbonised (decarboned?) their energy infrastructure. In france for example, 90% of electricity is non carbon, and that rises to 100% for several smaller countries

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#137

Post by kllrnohj » Wed, Jul 28, 2021, 4:26 PM UTC

b112 wrote: post #113

trixie_ wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They've got some weird obsession with hydrogen.. even recently I've seen a lot of online advertising for their hydrogen vehicle the Mirai which is wildly impractical in the US and probably anywhere else.

It's extremely practical, they just need a refueling network.

The Mirai is 196 inches long (same as a Model S or BMW 5 series) yet has less than 10 cu ft of trunk space. The volume required to fit all the hydrogen fuel cell components is massive. It's not especially practical as a result. Even if there was a refueling network, it's not like you're going to take it camping or road trip with such a small trunk, and for an around town grocery runner it's on the large side.

It's not like there's a good source of hydrogen that doesn't come from electricity generation anyway. It's "just" a different take on the battery, one that appears to be mostly worse other than charge times.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#138

Post by tonyedgecombe » Wed, Jul 28, 2021, 4:26 PM UTC

ashtonkem wrote: post #10

typon wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've pre-ordered an Ioniq 5. Tesla has a real competitor in Hyundai. If you don't care about the "self-driving" thing, other companies are catching up fast.

I’ve gone from bullish to bearish on self driving, all I want from that area is radar guided cruise control and highway friendly lane keeping. Sadly the Ioniq 5 won’t be on sale in my state. I’m considering a model Y because the range is desirable for the semi-regular camping we do.

>all I want from that area is radar guided cruise control

For some reason I read that as "all I want from that area is radar guided cruise control missiles".

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#139

Post by namdnay » Wed, Jul 28, 2021, 4:27 PM UTC

virgilp wrote: post #97

cycomanic wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's been quite a few studies questioning the current focus on EVs with ranges of 400km and more. Largely because they are so heavy and are therefore not very energy efficient. The argument is that most peoples daily commute is less than 50km (in Europe), but they still by an overly heavy EV for the 5-10 times a year they go on longer trips. Instead a plugin hybrid could be much more efficient, because you can use…

But... are we pretending here that the ICE and gas & all the plumbing etc don't weigh anything? It's not like PHEV have zero additional dead weight. A quick search says "Car engines can weigh up to 1,000 pounds" and "Tesla S has a massive battery weighing 1,200 lbs" - so, are your really saving that much weight with PHEVs?

Car engines can weigh up to 1000 pounds, but the standard weight is much lower. the VW group 1.4 turbo (probably one of the most common engines around) comes in at 230lb

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#140

Post by tonyedgecombe » Wed, Jul 28, 2021, 4:27 PM UTC

persedes wrote: post #118

typon wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've pre-ordered an Ioniq 5. Tesla has a real competitor in Hyundai. If you don't care about the "self-driving" thing, other companies are catching up fast.

I was close to getting one 2 years ago. Did the safety tests improve since then? If I recall the 2019 had issues with the roof / pillars, which were not strong enough to support the car in case you flipped it.

The Ioniq 5 has only just been released, it's a completely different design from the previous model.